V2G Tariff, Smart Meters, and Solar Panel Export Payments - how does it all link up?

@SteveRB We really ought to be having this conversation with @Hari_OVO in a Westcountry pub over a pint of real-ale 🍺

... and if you keep throwing in new TLAs without a translation, then we're going to scare off others from joining in here! [ENA, EVSE, OLEV...] 😮

I understand why your "contact" says that Distributed Network Operators are Chinese-walled away from Smart Meters. However, this refers to the first-generation SMETS1 meters, which were deployed by Electricity Suppliers on their own networks.

SMETS2 Meters are installed onto the National Smart Meter Network operated solely by the Data Communications Company, DCC. It is this network which uses the heavyweight encryption.

Energy Suppliers are provided with further encrypted links to DCC over which they can send SMETS Commands and have data returned to them. Of course, these links have sanity-checks and are cross-referenced to ECOES and Xoserve, the keepers of the National Meter Databases for electricity and gas meters respectively. This ensures that only your designated Supplier can send commands to your meter.

Using the same strategy there is no reason why different sets of data cannot be made available to DNOs by DCC.

TOU EV charging does not require Smart Meter data to be exchanged between Electricity Suppliers and DNOs.

Moreover, DNOs must at some stage be required to send the DUoS charge data to the Energy Suppliers once that too becomes variable. Perhaps this should be sent via DCC as well.

My DNO have told me how the DUoS is currently calculated for domestic premises in my area. At the moment it is a static rate, unaffected by the demand peaks of the distribution network which they operate. That makes no sense at all, and has to change.

My area of Britain often has over-supply of renewable energy beyond that which can be fed up the Transmission Grid to the rest of the country. You and everyone else are actually paying compensation to those Westcountry Generators, who Western Power Distribution have to remove from the Grid. 🤑

Using a combination of substations with OpenLV monitoring and aggregated data derived from commands being sent to SMETS2 meters, that excess energy would be better put into EVs (and a number of other storage technologies too of course).

All this is achievable... especially if you factor in the forecasting element that's present in OVO's Vcharge software.

@smithsmithers are you still following this?
Do you want to pull us back to something which you could implement soon rather than looking at future energy strategies?

Now... who's round is it?
Yours, @SteveRB or @Hari_OVO's?

Hi, sorry, i was in a 3 days trip and i disconected my network devices 🙂 freedom jajaja.

@Transparent sorry but about UK i dont have so much knowledge, thats why i came here jeje i am near to move in and i like this kind of things.

I have more knowledge about spain and norway :)


I have one question about the FIT tariff:
does i need 2 meters? i mean, one from my standard tariff (the old one) and the another one for the FIT tariff both of them working in paralel.

So at the end i have two meters, one smart from the FIT tariff that allow me to inject into the grid and the another one my traditional one

is this correct? i readed something about it but im not sure (V2G for my vehicule)
@SteveRB

Hi all,

Yes, there is need for another meter (the FIT meter). The installers of PV systems put one in.

The FIT meter goes electrically between the PV and the incoming power meter; thus, you can use your own power and not be billed. There is also export as against generation; it is possible to add an export meter - but this is unusual. It is assumed by small systems that 50% of the PV power is exported (not used at home).

I've a PV system and that is how my setup is wired.

V2G is helpful, but I for one cannot get sensible economics out of it in mass numbers, although as V2G EVs arrive there are useful things they can do for the DNO. But the DNO has small pockets; I've never heard of them financing V2G (their license terms usually say they cannot inject power i.e. be a generator, although that may change).

:)
Steve

Hi @smithsmithers You need to follow what @SteveRB writes on this matter. He actually has grid-connected solar panels, whereas mine are supplying an off-grid Home Storage Battery.

Note also that the SMETS2 Smart Meters which a now being installed have the ability to directly measure exported electricity and record it separately. Moreover they have a number of different Time Of Use (TOU) tariff bands inbuilt rather than just the present strategy of a single Economy-7 rate between midnight and 7am.

If you want to find out more about these subjects, you really need to join in with a local Community Energy Group. These exist all over the UK and are involved with projects like:

• helping householders to install solar panels
• disseminating energy awareness in the local population
• advising the local councils on energy policy
• energy surveys for houses that have large bills
• installing community-run energy schemes

My local group is part of the Transition Towns movement and also covers matters such as

• combating single-use plastics
• recycling schemes
• cycle routes for commuters
• community-run vegetable planters within the town
• tree planting and ecological diversification programmes

I don't know where you live at the moment because you haven't yet filled out your Forum Profile. So I can't say if I know of a local Energy Group near you.

... and when you reply on this Forum, you don't need to copy the entirety of a previous message, you can just tag someone so they know you have replied to their comment by using @smithsmithers for example. Other people reading the Topic can always see what's been said before! Thanks.

I got an OVO V2G charger and now pay £30 a month more!
They fitted the charger - worked after a couple of visits and a threat to remove it if they didn't get it working (My only transport is electric)
Problem was my contract came up for renewal 2 months after it was fitted - went from 11.8p per kWh to 14p per kWh. - That's a big increase - went on Compare the Market I could get 11.5p per kWh. £30 a month cheaper. But stuck with OVO for 2 years on this trial!!! Not happy. May just get a normal charger fitted and save wear and tear on my £6000 battery pack.

[edited by moderator]

Hi @tready - You raise an interesting point. I'm pretty sure we discussed this on the Forum over 18 months ago when the Home Storage Battery trials were first mooted, before @Hari_OVO became Storage Project Manager.

Unfortunately I can't now find that discussion, largely due to me having posted so many times!

The proposal at that time was to offer Trial Participants a new (fixed) Contract at commencement of the trial period, which was to last the length of the trial. This was particularly relevant to the Home Storage Batteries because they have a longer Return-on-Investment (RoI) period.

That underlying contract would bring stability to the Trial, ensuring that there was an appropriate level of commitment on both sides.

It was tricky to assess because there was also the possibility that participants might need to be switched to a half-hour variable tariff... which wasn't available (and still isn't).

The tariff structure is part of the trial because a variable tariff would affect what parameters the participants configured on their App. If there was a plentiful supply of solar power in the area, uses might reasonably be offered a cheaper rate, and hence charge their batteries deeper or for longer.


@Darran_OVO Do you want this discussion to remain on this Topic?
Or would you rather it moved to the newly-opened Topic where other V2G trial participants might find it?

With my tariff I get Polar Plus at 0.09£ per kWh. do I charge at my local Charge point at 9p and sell at 20p? come on guys this is not making scence

Charge me 14p at home when I get 9p everywhere else FFS are you real?

*Mod Edited to remove language* - I charge my car up at the local charger - the one next to the real ale pub at 9p and plug in at home and sell at 6p over my rate - 14p. Soo forgive me if my maths is wrong I get 11p per kWh while sat in the pub? - how is this good? OK I get time in the Pub - but it makes no scence!

Brilliant feedback, @tready. Let me just tag @Hari_OVO to make sure he sees this!

You are absolutely correct to raise this issue. There's more to being on the V2G Trial than just observing the functionality of the hardware. The Tariff system is equally important.

I'm a member of a community group who are involved in an Ofgem-funded project on the Distribution Grid. Ofgem are well aware that it's no use changing the regulatory structure that underpins our energy usage without first checking how ordinary members of the public might respond to that.

That's why it's so important to have ordinary people like you involved in Trials. What actually happens is that people change their habits because they realise that they can "play the system" to arrive at a better outcome for themselves.


You are quite correct to charge your car elsewhere and then export whilst at home. That's a direct consequence of the Trial Participants having a flat-rate Tariff. It makes financial sense from OVO's viewpoint, but it penalises you. Consequently you are actually better off being at the pub in the evening and not offering any stored charge back to the Grid to alleviate the time of peak-demand.


Let me expand further on this point with a wider scenario for @Hari_OVO and his colleagues to mull over.

Suppose 'Fred' has an EV with a V2G charger at home. His employer thinks this is a great idea and installs a batch of them in the employees car-park using a Government grant. Employees will be able to charge at 5p/kWh, and the company is to earn 8p /kWh for any exports. Brilliant!

Fred dutifully plugs in his car each day, but configures the App to only allow his EV to be charged.

At the end of his working day he drives home 20 miles, plugs in his EV and earns 10p /kWh as a result of his contract with his Energy Supplier for grid-connection during the time of evening peak-demand. Fred configures the App to leave enough charge for the return trip to the office in the morning.

At the end of the year, the company goes through an audit. The Accountant tells the Employer that the yield from his rank of V2G chargers is lower than expected. But it's not a big problem because he can write off the charger installation against tax.

The Annual Accounts are filed with Companies House and HMRC.

A month later, Fred receives a form from HMRC querying his personal tax return. They want to know if he has unearned income which he hasn't declared, and are investigating an issue of Employee Benefits.

Fred phones HMRC to tell them what he has been doing and offering to pay tax if any is due. However, he points out that the Company scheme was installed with a grant under a Government initiative.

The following week, Fred is at work when he is called to the MD's Office. Another man there introduces himself as Detective Sargent Jones, and cautions Fred because he's under investigation for theft of electricity from his place of employment.


Now what?!


This is what happens if technology gets introduced without people like you providing OVO with genuine feedback!

That's why what you are saying is more important than you might realise.

... and, finally, could you please fill out your Forum Profile. I'd be interested to know the rough area you live in. V2G technology will provide greater benefits in some areas of GB than others.

Thanks.