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Rishi the Fox
Rank 1
January 9, 2019
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V2G Tariff, Smart Meters, and Solar Panel Export Payments - how does it all link up?

  • January 9, 2019
  • 58 replies
  • 4677 views

I am hoping someone from OVO will be able to help me with this.

With your new (upcoming?) V2G tariff which pays for exported energy:

1) Does this work with a smart meter (SMETS2?) which keep track of 'exported' energy kWh via a separate reading? Therefore it's counting both the EV car's exported energy and the solar panel's exported energy together?
2) Would someone with solar panels therefore be paid by you on the basis that they're outside of the FiT scheme (opting-out or never registered for FiT export payments?)
3) Does the solar panel energy have to first be 'fed into' the V2G car battery, and then exported out to the grid via the V2G connector, or e.g. when the car isn't connected to the charger and is out on the road, and there is excess solar energy being produced at home, would that energy be exported and counted by the smart meter directly and would this exported energy still be paid for by you regardless?
4) Is it a REQUIREMENT that we have an EV car and/or purchase an EV charger from you, in order to sign up for this new tariff?

I purchased a property a few months ago and the previous owner, for whatever reason, never registered for the FiT and it's no longer possible to do so as the system was installed prior to 2016.

Therefore I'm not registered for export payments, and it would be nice if via an innovative energy company and a smart meter-based export meter, I would be able to get paid for exporting this energy to the grid.

I am looking to possibly get an EV car in the next two years, but it's not an immediate priority, hence why I'm wondering if EV car ownership is an absolute requirement to join this new tariff of yours.

Many thanks in advance for any answers!

    Best answer by Hari_OVO

    Updated on 09/05/22 by Jess_OVO

     

    Our Vehicle-to-Grid (V2G) trial is no longer accepting new participants - check out our latest electric vehicle (EV) plan OVO Drive here.


    Thanks for your message, it's a very interesting topic - and certainly one that is going to become more and more relevant given the recent government announcement that they would be removing FiT export payments on solar installations that take place after April 2019. If you haven’t got the required certification for your solar panels - check out the advice on the MCS website.

    I'll answer your last question first, as it's probably the one that you're most keen to know the answer to, and there is a very short answer, which is yes. Unfortunately, in order to receive export payments via our V2G trial, you will need to own a Nissan Leaf.

    We measure export reads via your smart meter, irrespective of whether it is a SMETS 1 or SMETS 2. And yes, you're absolutely right, it will measure exported energy regardless of whether it is from your car or solar.

    We will give customers an export credit, on the condition that they have opted out of any FiT export payments that they may have previously been receiving. If you don’t have a Nissan Leaf and are looking for another way to be credited for the energy your solar panels are sending back to the grid, find out more about the Smart Export Guarantee and how to apply for this with OVO here.

    58 replies

    Show previous replies
    J
    Newcomer
    JimTraynor
    Newcomer
    May 17, 2019
    Hi Transparent,
    I agree with most of what you say.
    A couple of comments.
    1. Customers with Solar panels and no electric car would certainly benefit hugely from a V2G tariff of 6p, however on average over the year all the power I generate is used in recharging the car and so any power sent through the V2G system is coming from my car battery which is the same as anyone without solar panels so the tariff should be the same. I cannot comment on what the final system will be as it is unknown at present.
    2. We were greatly encouraged to install Solar Panels so the government and electricity companies should have foreseen the possible out of balance scenario and taken steps to mitigate it. Like you I think the situation could be controlled relatively easily.
    3. I agree that a time of use tariff should be implemented but, based on the Solar Panel scenario, I question whether the people setting up the system are capable of designing it correctly.
    Jim
    Jim
    S
    Newcomer
    SteveRB
    Newcomer
    May 23, 2019
    Hello Jim and all,

    ...?? The electrical losses for V2G must include about 8% for AC/DC inverter, 8% lost in the battery on charge, then the same all the way back out. Plus system ICT stuff.

    I'd estimate 20% energy loss on each transfer, so the round trip means for 1 unit of energy out, you need to put 1.44 units into the Leaf.

    And that's good. Real-world experiments in US put V2G losses at near 50%.

    (See https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320650101_Comments_on_Measurement_of_Power_Loss_During_Electric_Vehicle_Charging_and_Discharging_-_Notable_Findings_for_V2G_Economics)

    What I am saying, for the 18p exported then without PV to help, someone had to buy 1.44 x 16p = 23p of retail kWh. How does this effect you numbers?

    The excess energy coming in dissipates as heat (and, I suspect, ££). Electricity alas is not a fungible commodity.

    Steve
    Transparent
    Rank 20
    Transparent
    Rank 20
    May 24, 2019
    Good point @SteveRB but I would hope OVO have achieved better than 92% efficiency on their V2G charger. It's surely a very important part of the design.

    Let's flag @Hari_OVO here and ask if he's able to provide us with an answer.
    Save energy... recycle electrons!
    S
    Newcomer
    SteveRB
    Newcomer
    May 24, 2019
    Transparent,

    Alas, losses are within the EV and there is nothing to be done about them from OVO's viewpoint.

    Adding another 8% loss (in the EVSE) makes the reported 50% loss figure plausible.

    I cannot see how buying power at retail rates allows V2G to work; the resupply must all be at wholesale else the V2G owner is making a thumping loss on the trade.

    And battery damage? Right now that is bundled into a Leaf cost line on the monthly rental. However, years ago I did this calculation for the Leaf: If we assume that a 24 kWh battery costs £8 k, is good for 1,000 cycles (hence £8 capital damage per 24 kWh throughput i.e. capital loss of £ 8/24 = 33.3p per kWh) then you can see that the whole idea is a nonsense.

    Where did the thought come from? It does not suit our market!

    Now, second-life batteries trading at wholesale is a different matter; that might make sense.

    But, from my viewpoint, this is all Nissan or other power providers trying to leverage ££ whilst passing the costs onto the owner.

    Other aspects:
    i) with 50% round-trip energy loss, you now need x2 source generation to provide the electricity...
    ii) you also need a complex ICT systems vs. don't for non-V2G
    iii) the best use for EV energy is driving; no extra losses
    iv) if we need to "inject power" to the grid, given that there will be millions (literally) of EVs charging most peak times... why can't those be turned off / down / deferred a bit? Why does that not work?

    :(
    Steve
    NoPoke
    Newcomer
    NoPoke
    Newcomer
    May 28, 2019
    SteveRB, 1000 cycles is probably a pessimistic estimate (2000 might be more likely) The cycle life is typically to 80% capacity so your cost estimate per kWh could be an over estimate by anything between 5x and 10x. With those factors the 6p figure looks much more reasonable.

    Off to read your cited article on round trip efficiency..
    NoPoke
    Newcomer
    NoPoke
    Newcomer
    May 28, 2019
    OK so I've read the 2017 report. The building transformer was run at 10% rating so will contribute to the poor round trip efficiency. But worse the 2002 design 20kW bi-directional dc-ac converter has low efficiency over the tested operating conditions. I can't think of a good reason why more modern designs would be similarly poor. OVO's unit is 6kW which I would expect is a much better match than a 20kW inverter to the likely export demand.

    Perhaps someone at OVO can tell us what the actual efficiency of their V2G inverter is? in the 2017 paper the authors found that the power electronics unit they tested (ac propulsion's AC-150) has losses between 8.28% and 21.80% during dc-ac conversion.
    S
    Newcomer
    smithsmithers
    Newcomer
    May 29, 2019
    Hi i just move to London and i have a couple of questions.

    1) I am really interested in the vehicle to grid (V2G) and i would like to know what is the government regulation about it. I didnt see any news about it in the last months...

    2) I would like to know what are the legal documents where the government talk about the self-consume regulation.
    How it works for example if i have solar panels? how it works if i use my car´s battery for supply my home?


    i would like to read this regulations and legal requirements.

    Thank you so much and good work! i like so much your idea! keep on it dudes!
      Eva_OVO
      OVO Staff
      Eva_OVO
      OVO Staff
      May 30, 2019
      I've moved your post over here, @smithsmithers, you'll be able to see how V2G works with solar panels.

      In regards to your legal query, I'm not sure about this - hopefully @Hari_OVO can help with this! 🙂
      My friend told me how electricity is measured and I was like Watt!
        S
        Newcomer
        smithsmithers
        Newcomer
        May 30, 2019
        I've moved your post over here, @smithsmithers, you'll be able to see how V2G works with solar panels.

        In regards to your legal query, I'm not sure about this - hopefully @Hari_OVO can help with this! :)

        im waiting for it 🙂
        S
        Newcomer
        smithsmithers
        Newcomer
        June 3, 2019

        I've moved your post over here, @smithsmithers, you'll be able to see how V2G works with solar panels.

        In regards to your legal query, I'm not sure about this - hopefully @Hari_OVO can help with this! :)        im waiting for it :)
        @Hari_OVO can you help me please? 🙂
        Show more replies
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