Four flats with storage heaters facing RTS shutdown....

Howdy ​@Dailydb !

No doubt you’ve figured me out by now. :D

Could you answer just two more things for us please? This will help us figure out the advice to give you - and may make things easier for Luke if we do need to summon him. :)

1. Are any of the flats that need upgrading vacant/void right now? Or do they all have tenants?
2. Can you post photos of all the setups - especially the ones that need upgrading?

With these bits of extra info, we’ll see what we can figure out for you.

Thanks!

Hello, and thanks for fast reply !……I’ve requested photo of A2 (upstairs flat, 2 failed visits) and will post shortly.

flat A1, the 2 phase basement one is vacant, so in my name and a little easier. Plan to book this later when working there as I’m half an hour away. The first installer cast an eye over it, and suggested the 2 phase team would be needed….photos:

And also….I found this from the Octopus flat (B2). Looks like is a smart meter (‘reporter’) and also shows economy 7…..maybe why they have not replied ?!!

thanks !

Thanks!

Gonna start with B2 as that’s the easy one here. It is NOT a Smart Meter - it’s a Traditional Economy 7 Meter (Ampy 5184A) but I can’t tell if it’s RTS from that photo alone as I’d need to see nearby stuff too.

As for A1… Looks like it could benefit from a boost but it doesn’t seem to be 2-Phase... How about I introduce you to a friend of mine… Got some free time ​@Lukepeniket_OVO ? I’ll bring cookies this time! XD

Once you get A2, show us that one too and we’ll be happy to offer our thoughts.

Great….OK, to make sure I understand B2, then economy 7 can work with a ‘legacy meter’ but without needing RTS ?. And we could tell how this one is running from the presense of a black RTS box ?

With A1, I think the input wires for each rate meter traced back to the 3 phase incoming box, on separate phases. So these are1 phase meters, but the first installer thought we’d need the crack team who work on 3 phase…..?

its great being able to bounce all this around…..a solution is possible !

Gotcha… That sounds like a rare setup for A1 that hopefully Luke can figure out a migration path better than I can. But it may have to be a 3-Phase Meter or Remote RTS depending on exactly how it’s wired up...

As for B2, yes. E7 has been known to run without RTS - please show me a wider shot and I’ll see whether that’s the current setup for sure. But it’s possible that it’s already running local-only.

Thanks, yes, I’ll try and post more pics.

As an overview for B1, and in general, the first problem is no heating, or peak rate heating after RTS.

Second issue of smart meter might be unimportant. If one doesn’t work, or only occasionally, and time re-synced occasionally, then manually supplying 2 rate readings when asked is manageable. So we can see how the basement one works now, underground, and insist on another for B1 above ground.

But I’m still unsure how they’d engineer the Ampy 5184A night rate switch, once a local timer ran off track, if there’s no external signal to re-sync. Just a ‘Set Clock’ button would do ?? 

Either way, we wait for the next installer in a month !….thanks Dailydb

mmm…….looks like we’d end up with eventual problems with Ampy 5184A, which I’m presuming might be OVO’s ‘Legacy’ meter option. As discussed here: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/3617265/resetting-clock-on-ampy-type-5184a-meter

Trying to get more pics…..thanks !

It’s possible. Those old meters can eventually lose their time - but it only usually happens after many years of service.

Smart Meter should be possible regardless of WAN - OVO has some new pre-configured ones that are already factory-set with basically all the configs you could possibly need so that they’ll work out of the box for the basics - including rate/load switching - even if WAN isn’t available right now. They won’t need a time re-sync for some time either, by which point the WAN would likely be fixed anyway.

IIRC there is no fix for that old Ampy 5184A - there’s only that Optical port but as I understand things, no-one carries the programmers for them anymore.

​@Blastoise186 thanks as always for your great answers here, I hope you get this all sorted successfully ​@Dailydb.

I can see ​@Blastoise186 has already tagged our expert ​@Lukepeniket_OVO. When he gets a chance he should be able to give some good advice on this one!

The 2nd installer for B1 had brought a pre-configured E7 meter. But OVO had asked what plan to choose for the new meter when the first appointment was booked, and chose E10. So he left as well. Both held a mobile phone up near the window to decide RF availability (WAN) instead of, for example, powering the actual meter from a wall socked for 30 seconds to test RF. I’m not making this up.

So a preconfigured E7 smart meter is the only option, if no others can re-sync, or re-set clock, and theres no more secret information ?. Any flat first needs to be changed to E7, then we re-book an appointment, insisting on a preconfigured meter.

Another issue is WAN. If these are using 5G, then if I understand, now distributed networking. So data can move sideways. We will have four in one building in a busy street. The one successful installer felt this overrode any doubts, and installed his in the basement (also without testing it first). Said it was working OK.

Is there a way to force Octopus to return calls ? or take my call as the owner ?

I really appreciate your support on this, and great if ​@Lukepeniket_OVO gets a moment to read. I’ve added photos for B1/2….thanks !

The ones currently being deployed run on 2G/3G, but are being migrated to 4G shortly - it’s unlikely they’ll ever use 5G because of range issues.

But there is also the option to use a Mesh Network where one Comms Hub acts like a proxy for several others in a particular area - the idea is to overcome signal issues. I can’t speak for Octopus though as I’ve got no experience with them. All I can say is try their complaints process.

B2 doesn’t seem to use RTS at first glance, but I’m still tracing the cables - bear with me.

Great info, thanks !. So for us the issue becomes how does one access that mesh network option if the intallers dont know about it ??. Presummably that needs another RF setup, because its not part of 2-3-4G…..do the meters have that transceiver built in too ?

I’ll go and look at Octopus complaints ….or possibly once we have OVO options sorted, we can just change supplier….

Pretty much all engineers should know about this - it’s part of the standard training. The hubs in question are primarily the Toshiba/WNC SKU2 Cellular + Mesh hubs, but in some cases they’re SKU3 Special Installation Mesh Comms Hubs instead.

But all the ones used in the Southern Territory - for which Oxford is slap bang in the middle - should support the 2G/3G setup that the Telefonica WAN is running on at the moment. The meters themselves don’t have this functionality, but they communicate with the Comms Hubs via a local connection between the two - the Home Area Network.

Thinking some more, is the mesh/proxy more like another access point, so OVO might put one (like a mobile network base station) in a region with poor reception ?.

Pretty sure well find that RTS box feeds both flats…...any crystal oscillator will drift, so I just don’t think theres a viable unconnected night rate solution…..thanks

That’s the clever trick - the mesh functionality is part of the Comms Hubs that support it. No extra boxes needed - it even fits in the same footprint as those which aren’t enabled for it.

OK, so OVO might make an internal decision to install another comms hub somewhere, which could help ?

From our perpective, hoping to help a third appointment work, can we do anything ?

There’s ways to make that work. An SKU2 Comms Hub also supports external aerials that can be used to boost the signal - that’s the easier option if signal is just a little weak and Mesh Comms Hubs aren’t nearby.

​@Dailydb could you send me account numbers for the OVO supplied accounts please! B1 looks like it needs a MRMM polyphase engineer to do.

But yeah send me over some details so i can look at our records. Cheers

Great, thanks Luke, I’ll get the account number organised overnight for you !…stand by !

​@Lukepeniket_OVO thanks very much for stepping in with this one - ​@Dailydb you’re in safe hands.

And ​@Blastoise186 thanks for your great input on this post as well, much appreciated 😁.

OK, so here are the OVO accounts for @Lukepeniket_OVO 

B1: *** removed by Moderator***

(other urgent one is B2 with Octopus- still no response)

A1: *** removed by Moderator***

The basement flat running with new meter is A2: *** removed by Moderator***

In an ideal world, one successful visit to change all would be magnificent !

​@Dailydb ive done a comms check and basement is all ok =] reads coming through

​@Dailydb just a reminder never to post account numbers or other sensitive info on the Forum - I’ve removed them for you now 😊.

Sorry ​@Dailydb I should have mentioned to DM me the account stuff. I have got everything I need to look at previous jobs. sorry yes ive just realised A1 needs changing aswell. If need be could you give us access to each of the flats?