Fascinating.

(I’ve only snipped the screenshots to bring your comments together.)

FWIW, my professional opinion of the negative usage values is that they are simply wrong, they’re based on a failure to understand the nature of the data being processed. They’re estimates, yes, but they’re stupid estimates. Sorry to be so blunt, Ovo.

The formatting of the date stamp is surely a sign of something. Are these screenshots of the app, or of the My Ovo web page? aedit - sorry, I’ve only just realised you already say they’re from My Ovo] Or of something else (perhaps the result of copy-pasting into a spreadsheet of yours)? I’ve looked at my usage for dates in that period, and on the web page, the date format has the month spelled out all the way through:

while my version of the android app now has day number and day of the week. the month is only in the heading.

FWIW, I noticed that the app has been updated as of this morning, mine is the android one, and it says App version 13.0.1 under Account, Account details, App details

I simply don’t know what the previous App version was, or when this version was pushed onto my phone. (Not sure I’m entirely happy with “code push”, but I’ll let it go for now...)

I believe those small random variations from day to day, combined with step changes from one billing month to the next, are artifacts of the bizarre choice by Ovo to make up such variations to no useful purpose whatsoever. If they have no evidence for how usage varied within the billing month, then leave it as the simplest option, a constant (based on the opening and closing readings for the month).

Ovo can say they only report negative usages when they are applying a credit, following previous over-estimates, to ensure that the customer is not overcharged (text in the new version of the app that shows negative usage in green), but to be honest, that’s nonsense. There is no excuse for having made a negative estimate in the first place. And if they’ve got an estimate wrong, on the usage pages, they can just correct it. It’s not like they’ve charged the user for it. Have they?

(I’m being careful to distinguish the case where Ovo help themselves to too much in the form of a direct debit that has been set unreasonably high, and the case where Ovo actually issue a statement of account in which the the balance on the account needs a credit because it reflects an overestimated usage. They sound similar but, I suspect they’re different, so long as Ovo have different software for reporting usage and for preparing their billing/statements of account.)

Thanks for the update @fatbloke88 and, if my questions for clarification make sense, thanks in anticipation for anything you can offer.

BW

(my bad - the reply that I thought had got lost is here, on a new page in the thread. Competence? I’ve heard of it...)

Yes, and it’d be nice if things were as simple as that (I mean, nice if Ovo’s usage software actually achieved this but, these days, it doesn’t - as you point out).

As this is Electricity usage, there is no variation in the rate charged from day to day and there is no need to apportion usage across the days in any way other than the simplest (which would be exactly flat, no made up small random variations). Frankly I find it bizarre that Ovo try. There is nothing like that on the PDF statements we get that are the definitive version of how much we owe them (or vice versa). There is just a monthly total, charged at a single rate. There is no Time of Use tariff (yet).

Gas is very slightly different, what with CV variations, but even there, I can’t complain about the bills that I get when some readings are missing. (See an earlier post, somewhere.)

I won’t repeat my views on needless negative estimates and how they can be avoided ;-)

Best wishes, and enjoy the weekend ;-)

I’m just going to jump in quickly to explain the CodePush stuff a bit more. At the time of writing this, the latest version of the OVO Energy app on both Android and iOS should be App Version 13.0.1 released on the 24th September 2021 (updated via the App Store/Google Play Store) and no CodePush Version at the moment, because everything in the latest version of the app is either equal to or newer than what CodePush would otherwise refresh to - CodePush refreshes and version updates are managed in-app. The most recent CodePush Version was v302 prior to the 13.0.1 app update (the previous App Version was 13.0.0 before this update iirc). It’ll be bumped again if any assets are updated before the next version of the app itself is released. While the CodePush Version is currently showing “-” indicating no refreshes have happened since the last app install/update (so it’s currently on the baseline), it only affects assets within the app like HTML, CSS and JS (the OVO Energy app is mainly built from these)

I did a blog on how it all works a few months ago, feel free to check it out.

While CodePush refreshes itself whenever you launch the app, the App Version only changes when the app itself is updated via the App Store/Google Play Store. If you have automatic updates turned on in there (which I definitely recommend doing anyway), apps may be updated when your device is idle to minimise disruption to the user - CodePush can’t interact with anything else on the device outside the OVO app itself for security reasons (as that would break sandboxing and would get blocked anyway).

thanks for the clarification, @Blastoise186 

Sorry to hear this ones still not been fully resolved, @fatbloke88.

In this case it’s worth responding to the email you’ve received requesting that your complaint is escalated. If our Support Team aren’t able to reach a resolution that you’re happy with, the next stage of our Complaints procedure would be to escalate this to our dedicated Complaints team. At this point your complaint would be assigned to a complaint agent who would be the nominated point of contact as you describe.

I hope this information is helpful in getting the matter sorted. 

UPDATE: No response received as yet I have been oin again to CS via the chat app.

Meter is still not communicating reads (why???)

We are deeply concerned by the lack of response/action to resolve this issue.

It isn’t just the complaint but the heart of this matter for us is that we have probably been significantly overcharged over a long period of time and we are partially retired. For example the usage charts in MY OVO for Aug this year are still showing circa 90kWh/pd despite me having provided accurate and almost daily readings since Aug 31st.

When I spoke to a senior CS agent (is there such a person in reality??) and was advised about the DF tariff being incorrectly set at some previous point, I was advised that actual meter readings were used but the consumption values are wild and out of sync with our normal patterns. We are left wondering could there have been an issue in the past?

We understand that these meters are reporting the data they hold, but could that have been influenced/altered by other factors?? Our consumption patterns have NOT changed significantly despite 2 of us WFH throughout the pandemic. Since them my partner has retired.

We are now far from happy, unable to move away from OVO until this is resolved and overpaying by a considerable amount.

If we do not get this resolved today, we will raise the issue to the regulator/ombudsman as we are fed up of trying to manage this matter through chats and emails.

@Tim_OVO@Jess_OVO@Blastoise186@Transparent Any suggestions on getting this resolved without regulator or ombudsman??

That’s understandable @fatbloke88 

A: has your complaint to OVO reached the 8-week time-point when the Office of the Energy Ombudsman will be allowed to take a look at your case?

B: please ensure that the Ombudsman has the link to this topic here on the Forum. It will help to clarify a lot of the more obscure points as to why the error has actually affected  the amount you’ve paid.

This is important because I can’t think of another case here when meter readings being sent to the new Billing System has been anything more than incorrect usage being recorded.

Note to OVO - if you want a more technical explanation of what we customers think is going wrong here, have a look at what @Simon1D and I have been posting in the Tech Treehouse.

This has been going on now since 20/07 but I dont recall the exact date the first complaint was raised as I did it via a CS agent over the phone. The responses to date have been not much that holding mails which say something like we have Xdays etc…

As a customer I was not asked if this was agreeable or reasonable, I was simply told. I do find that extremely aggravating. This arbitrary timeframe was created by system designers to appear reasonable to regulators and suppliers. As a user experiencing it I can assure you it is neither reasonable nor agreeable! Sorry @Jess_OVO@Tim_OVO ...

Well it sounds like you can go to the Ombudsman then. The ‘internal rule’ within CS is that a customer’s communication providing them with details of something that’s wrong is always treated as a complaint even if they don’t specifically state so.

Remember that the Ombudsman is there to find a remedy. Even if they find in your favour, there’s only a token financial compensation of around £25. (Although in one very severe case I was actually awarded £70 and the Ombudsman reported the Energy Supplier to Ofgem.)

The main thrust of the Ombudsman’s approach is to ensure that the Supplier is properly addressing the issue, and that it’s not affecting other customers who may be unaware of the errors.

So, for example, the Ombudsman could read this topic here on the Forum and then instruct OVO to engage with @Simon1D and I who have been reporting on such issues in the private Treehouse area of the Forum!

I’ve never heard of such a directive before(!) but it’s typical of the sort of strategy which the Ombudsman might do by way of reaching a resolution.

They aren’t a legally-minded group of people. They’re very practical and use common-sense.

Hi @fatbloke88 and thanks for keeping this thread updated with the latest. 

I need to step in here as there’s some advice in @Transparent’s latest comment that might not hold water. Let’s take a step back to make sure you’re getting accurate, realistic advice to solve your OVO problems:

1. OVO needs to ensure you’re billed correctly, neither underpaying or overpaying for your actual usage, represented by meter readings shown on your monthly summaries. It’s so important that you have confidence with these charges, but of course that’s not to be mistaken for other features such as the online usage sections. Fortunately I’d say it’s pretty straight forward to make sure your charges are correct, unless we’re dealing with things like a faulty meter, but even in these edge cases we’ve had plenty of previous experience at billing customers. It’s what we do. This takes me onto my next point:
2. Our complaints team would be happy to outline these charges to you in detail, if necessary at the request of the Ombudsman. Historical usage, pre/post meter exchange, you name it. We’ve got it on file. Either way your problem would be solved by OVO as we would have access to your usage data, history and so on. It’s worth making sure the Complaints team have had a chance to resolve this first. Ombudsman complaints add weeks to your resolution.
3. From what you’ve described, I’m really sorry to hear that OVO advisors may not have actioned the issues you were describing by taking steps to have this looked at. Perhaps a complaint wasn’t logged when it was supposed to, perhaps a request wasn’t actioned or wasn’t sent to the correct team. No one on the forum is able to comment on this as you can imagine, but I do know that mistakes happen, and we’re always happy to have an opportunity to put them right. 

As a result, please reach out to our Support Team when you can, perhaps linking them to this comment of mine (here), so we can make sure your doubts around your billing and charges are raised and escalated as a complaint, if not to the Complaints team, then initially to a line manager. That way we’ll be on track to getting this resolved for you. 

I substantially agree with what @Tim_OVO  has just written.

In particular:

1: Taking a case through to the Office of the Energy Ombudsman is not quick. I’ve taken two cases there in the past (not as an OVO customer!) and it took months before a formal Decision was issued. There’s a lot of ‘paperwork’ which has to be gathered and then cross-checked.

You probably won’t know this, but OVO uses Morrison Data Services for customer meter data. So the Ombudsman would be checking some details that us customers would never normally know about.

2: The Ombudsman does not replace OVO in deciding the outcome of a complaint. A customer’s case still uses the same OVO staff and processes to find information, but with external scrutiny.

3: Energy usage and billing are linked, but are not the same thing. There can be errors made in usage data and yet the bills could still be correct. Us customers have great difficulty getting our heads around this. It’s the main issue that prompted @Simon1D and I to start looking at the calculations last year.

4: A case like this may have been initiated by one single event, such as an incorrect meter reading. But it’s usually not that simple.

Invariably there will have been a ‘correction’ made somewhere, but possibly not in the way which the Billing System was expecting. It can take a long time to trawl through and discover where a well-meaning member of staff has attempted to get an account ‘corrected’.

The way in which ‘corrections’ are applied is something else which @Simon1D and I are exploring!

5: The Ombudsman route is non-confrontational. It doesn’t provide redress against an Energy Supplier. It simply brings in some scrutiny whilst everyone is working together with the same aim… to make sure that the billing is correct.

Update: We have received 2 emails from the billing/complaints team (not sure which). Unfortunately I’ve had to reject both of them as explanations or closure and ask for a more detailed explanation. The reason is that when I’ve checked my consumption as shown in my OVO the consistency and regularity of consumption since Mar 20 is astonishing despite the the team telling me us that they have meter reads from our meter for the period in question, see below;

The points I have raised are identical values for many days at a time and the consistency of the data changing on the 10th monthly. This simply does not look like a normal consumption pattern. Or am I missing something? I am at a complete loss to explain the exceedingly high value on 30/09 I notre that there has been a correction in the days following but I’m fairly sure our meter did NOT give those readings… The above data was taken directly from My OVO.

For reference you can see in earlier posts the daily fluctuations in consumption but for ease I’ll display the latest data below;

No two days are the same consistently and certainly no periods of regular consumption as shown above. This data was taken by me directly from the SM at varying points in the day normally before 10AM. Any gaps are where I was not in to take the reading.

What am I missing here?

That’s very well presented. Thank you @fatbloke88 

I wonder if 10th of the month is the anniversary date of the start of your contract?

The Billing Software might be programmed to apportion errors and missing readings at that time in order to generate a bill which meets Ofgem’s licence requirements.

I still think this upper chart demonstrates a muddle between meter reading to create a usage history, and the data required to make a bill. It’s ended up showing a pattern which lacks clarity for the customer.

Anything to add to this @Simon1D ?

There’s a lot I could add, and little would be polite. I’ll try to keep it brief, but that’s always a losing battle with my posts...

There is no need for Ovo to create a usage history: that’s called making stuff up, and I flat out don’t believe that Ofgem licensing would require that. In the absence of time of use tariffs, billing needs readings, no more no less: an opening reading at the start of the billing period (which is always, by definition, the same as the closing reading of the previous statement), and a closing reading, whether smart or taken by the customer (or by another human whose job is reading meters) or, as a last resort, estimated by Ovo. The basis of Ovo’s estimates is what I have come to question, given their inability to process “usage” in a way that accords with physics. @fatbloke88 has his own experience of the nonsense of negative usage.

In this case, I suspect that we might be seeing the potentially catastrophic interaction between bad processing of usage data (it’s bad because it leads to nonsense) and a faulty meter.

But I would need to look again at all the data that @fatbloke88 has already posted in this thread before suggesting that a faulty meter is the “probable” cause (in the opinion of this amateur). I’ve already commented earlier in this thread about the regular weekly pattern of implausibly small day-to-day variations, and the abrupt step changes in usage that happen on the monthly billing date. I know exactly how to generate such nonsense (this is different from the nonsense of negative usage - it’s a matter of attaching false significance to random variations).

I will look again at the earlier data, but this will take me a little time.

Back in a bit

There’s a lot I could add, and little would be polite.

Wood this help?

A progress report. As a first step, I just collated all of FB88’s contributions to this thread (even missing out contributions from the rest of us, that’s 26 pages worth in my OpenOffice Writer document - rest assured, I’ll never print it). Quite apart from the data, which I will look at again next, I am struck by the humbling combination of politeness, co-operation yet dogged persistence shown by @fatbloke88 throughout this saga - I take my hat off to you!

Right, a quick ride to the shops, then time to look at the data…

Back this pm.

(Nice joints, @Transparent!)

I should add, I have asked for the actual read data that they tell me they have. I assume there will also be additional data to confirm that it actual read data sent/received from a smart meter. Does anyone know what I should see when they send that through?

Before diving into data - I would suggest, @fatbloke88 : if you have a smartphone, have a go with the Ovo Energy app (I use the Android version). Even though the underlying data are the same, the app definitely presents them differently.

One of its advantages is, it will display a list of the 409 (iirc) most recent smart meter readings for each of gas and electricity. They’re only rounded to the nearest integer, but that would be very helpful and additional info here. If there are any at all, of course. It's under Account, on the home screen:

What it does not show are any estimated readings that Ovo is using. I can’t remember if it shows customer readings (I haven’t had to give any of those in nearly 2 years).

Aside from anything else, I would add to my request to @Tim_OVO (to also show these meter readings in the web interface, My Ovo): please can Ovo share with customers all the readings it’s using, including those customer and estimated readings, please?

aAlso, of course, those screenshots show that electricity and gas smart meter data are missing from different days and so, presumably, make their way through the system independently of one another.]

PS On an entirely trivial note, following a tiny edit to the above - should I give up with this pretense that the word “data” is plural? I’m clearly struggling to maintain a consistent line on this question, even when I’m thinking of little else ...

Oh great… another trivial point to lighten the mood:

I agree that data is certainly plural because datum is the singular.

But, like many people, I treat data as if it is a collective noun and write data is rather than data are. I know that’s incorrect, but it’s one of my little contributions to the evolution of language.

The bigger issue here is to decide if I should continue to use the word data to refer to numerals within my energy usage which are ‘manufactured’. Data normally implies that there is authenticity within the information being presented.

Physics has created the expression dark matter in order to balance mathematics with observations at cosmological and sub-atomic levels. Does OVO use dark data in similar fashion?

This evening when I’m observing Orion, I will know that its components are held in place by something dark. Ah well… no matter 

I have at last had a chance to trawl through the data that FB88 has posted in this thread.

Does his comment:

UPDATE: apparently at some point, someone somewhere registered ours as a dual rate meter

amount to a smoking gun?

I’m not familiar with any type of meter other than my own, but the following comments

... press “9” on the meter I was getting total consumption from both Day & Night registers even though there is no night register…

... press ”6” and look at a range of data there is a reading in there of kwh which is more in line with what is expected

look like an implied admission iadmission by Ovo, implication by FB88] that the meter was “at some point” misconfigured and, possibly as a result of that misconfiguration, potentially wrong instructions were given for how to take a meter reading.

So what?

Well, a meter (dumb or smart) has a register containing a value that changes with time. That value is an indication (a measurement) of the amount supplied up to that moment, and a meter reading is that combination: a value, with the date and time at which the register contained that value. The process, “reading the meter” used to involve just looking at the meter register (i.e. physical dials and digits) and now involves coaxing the meter into displaying its register value(s) by pressing buttons. The only thing “smart” about a Smart Meter is that the “button pushing” can be done remotely, because the meter is able to communicate with the world. The remembrance of things past (as Proust would put it) is a feature of the Comms Hub (and not the smart meter). As far as I can tell, the only thing the Comms Hub remembers is consumption, known in Ovo-land as “usage”.

I would love someone to prove to me otherwise (but they have to provide evidence rather than just make the assertion, please) that the Comms Hub stores actual past meter readings, but I don’t think it does. Nothing I’ve seen, from Ovo, Octopus, Hildebrand, et al. indicates that it is possible to ask a smart meter (now):

What was your reading at this time and on that date, in the past?

The only questions that can be asked are:

What is your “current” reading (where “current” is the moment at which you respond to this question, not the moment when I submit this question for your consideration)?

What is your record of consumption, from this time and date to that time and date (in the past)?

To return to @fatbloke88 ‘s tale of woe...

What’s up?

Is Ovo’s demand for large sums of money reasonable? Maybe so, if FB88 really did consume that much energy (but even if he did, it begs the question why he’s only finding out about it “now”, when it’s too late to know FOR SURE what those readings were in the past).

All his attempts to discover how on earth his demand can have been as high as 65% of the maximum possible (25 kW) that his supply is physically capable of meeting, and remained at that high level for at least 6 days, have failed. Ovo hasn’t told him, and whenever he’s measured his consumption, it’s fallen far far short of the 16 kW implied by Ovo’s demands. There was just ONE measurement that showed just over half that level, 8.9 kW, and that was for a period of only 16 minutes. And until someone offers a very good reason not to, I’m inclined to accept FB88’s assurances that the pattern of consumption has remained more or less the same throughout this whole period, and that amounts to a level of demand which is of the order 0.5 to 1.0 kW.

FWIW, I think the onus is on Ovo to demonstrate that the meter is working correctly now, and was working correctly at the time of the disputed consumption.

Apologies for not managing to post this sooner, @fatbloke88.

BW

Might this (from another live thread on the forum) be in some way related?

For light relief, after that little rant, I found myself reading this blog post. Perhaps it’s an indication of how keen I am to know what, exactly “my” smart meter and its Comms Hub have within them…

Can I find out by making a GDPR-style Subject Access Request, I wonder? Not of the meter and Comms Hub themselves of course, but of whoever is their Data Controller.

I’m wonder if @Transparent has a ready answer to this question ;-)

An interesting distinction, @Transparent: I recognise that informal sense in which “data” connotes a useful degree of authenticity.

As one at home with statistics, I’m reminded of another version:

the plural of anecdote is data

On checking, I find that’s apparently from social science/economics/etc.

The wages of sin is death

or

The wages of sin are death

that is the question...

But now I’m rambling …