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Can I go from two electricity meters to a single Economy 7 meter?

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Blastoise186
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Ah ha, perfecto! Thanks for that.

Yes, this looks like some kind of Economy 7 type setup, but it could be a different type of two meter arrangement as well. It’s not always easy to identify exactly what it happens to be. However, this helps me a lot.

SSE’s Electric Heating Team should be able to discuss this with you and hopefully figure out an upgrade path to a Smart Meter. There’s a dedicated number too which is 0345 071 7972.

It’s possible that an electrician may need to do a bit of rewiring afterwards, but you’ll be kept informed if that’s the case.

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R
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Thanks. I’ll try them and let you know how i get on.

Blastoise186
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No worries.

What you currently have seems to be a complex meter setup and therefore you might have two MPANs (Meter Point Administration Numbers) which can result in you paying two Standing Charges at the moment. Upgrading to a Smart Meter would result in you going to just a single meter with one MPAN and guarantees only one Standing Charge in the future. It would also make it easier to switch suppliers later if you wanted to.

The other bit of good news is that SSE can take care of the admin and paperwork related to cleaning up the records on ECOES (the central electric meter database) to remove that second MPAN on your behalf if needed as part of the service.

Feel free to keep us posted with how you get on. If you need a hand again with anything, we’ll be happy to help.

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Transparent
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That site has two separate 100A Service Fuses. It is likely that they are connected to different phases by the Distribution Network Operator (DNO) for your area (SSEN).

That’s why they serve two separate single-phase consumer units.

 

Read our existing illustrated tutorial topic on Who owns what? This will help you to contact the right company about the right bits of the installation.

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Blastoise186
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Thanks Transparent!

In actual fact, I just noticed a possible fault here as well. It seems like there might be exposed copper just above the service fuse on the right right where that black cable feeds into it. Please don’t touch any part of that or you’ll be in for a nasty shock.

In fact, it seems as if there might be missing tamper seals on those service fuses as well. That’s definitely not right and could be a pretty serious safety issue.

This may need to be reported as an emergency repair job with your DNO.

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Transparent
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I agree @Blastoise186 - there are several Fault Codes to be reported here.

@Ray780  the orange arrow below points to the bare copper which Blastoise refers to

 

I’ve circled the missing security seals on both fuses. These are typically absent when the DNO has removed their fuses for an electrician to install new consumer units, but then failed to return later to check the installation. (Or possibly the electrician forget to tell them it was completed!)

I’ve labelled the two fuses as L1 and L2, although I don’t actually know which phases have been fed to the property.

That would mean the central position with the bare copper showing is the Neutral. Although theoretically this should be the same voltage as earth, there are circumstances in which it can ‘float high’ and cause a shock. Do not touch it!

The presence of a Neutral on a Cut-Out like this is usually indicative of a TT mains connection. If that is so, then you should have your own earthing stake outside and close to the meter position. Check for this.

When the consumer units were installed the electrician should have supplied a Site Test Document. The Earth Path Resistance will have been measured and must be less than 200 ohms. You should also have received a separate certificate by post declaring that the installation complies with Building Regulations Part-P.

 

Fault code A07 is Exposed Live Conductor. There is no separate code for an ‘exposed neutral’.

This needs reporting to SSEN who would normally attend site within 24 hours.

I am not a qualified electrician. It is possible that the Forum Moderators may pass this dialogue to an in-house expert for checking. If so, please ensure you keep reading below as there may be additional comment/advice given.

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Transparent
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@Ray780  - I’ve checked online the area around your (rural) site. Whilst I don’t have the electricity Distribution Grid map for the SSEN southern region, I can see well enough how the 440v 3-phase feed proceeds westwards along Thackhams Lane from your local substation.

My suggestion for your site is as follows:

  1. Ask SSEN if they can bring 3-phase into the house (instead of the existing 2-phase). This is likely to be chargeable.
  2. Ask your Energy Supplier to install a 3-phase Smart Meter, such as the Aclara SG1433B, which we’ve been discussing recently with another member over on this other topic. There is no charge for installing a Smart Meter where there wasn’t one previously.

That means you’d have one 3-phase meter rather than two single-phase ones. Having a single MPAN for just one meter makes it easier to switch between Suppliers in future.

These changes will radically open up the possibilities for:

  • 3-phase rapid charging of Electric Vehicles
  • Option to use a more efficient 3-phase Heat pump in future.
  • Better opportunity for export of electricity from PV Solar Panels if you wish (because you won’t be causing losses due to phase imbalance).
  • Greater flexibility for on-site electricity Storage Batteries.

Please ask if you like us to elaborate on any of this.

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R
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Thanks, I’m in contact with SSE Heating team and speaking to a very helpful Lisa. I’ll raise these points with her.

Tim_OVO
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Nice one, @Ray780 - keep us updated if possible. This is turning into another good thread with advice that will help more then just yourself. 

 

Also, have you reported this live copper neutral to your DNO yet?

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R
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Hi Tim, i must admit that i haven’t reported it yet as due to speak to Lisa again next Monday ( as she is on holiday this week ) and i thought i would pick it all up together, I am sure you’ll repeat i should report it asap which i know is the correct thing to do and i will now do so. Ray

Blastoise186
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No worries Ray, the main thing is that you’re aware of it. That’s our biggest concern. :)

Feel free to send Lisa a link to this forum thread if you’d like to. It might help her to see what’s already been said here and adds a bit more context.

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Transparent
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Please let SSE know the address for this topic @Ray780 - They can then see your photos and the points we’ve made about the apparatus.

Bah!…. Blastoise made the same point whilst I was still writing!

 

Although we’re now discussing safety issues and regulations, I haven’t forgotten the original question.

I’m ready to discuss how to better divide the phases across various ‘loads’ both with your existing heating/energy requirements, and those which you may want in the future.

Our suggestions here will take into account the forthcoming Time Of Use tariffs, based on half-hourly time-slots and controlled via your Smart Meter.

Houses in your area are well above average size and will be prohibitively expensive to heat in the early evening period of peak demand. Having three phases will help, but some form of energy storage will soon become a necessity.

Much of what we say here would apply equally to your neighbours, who are obviously welcome to pitch in here if you let them know.

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R
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Thanks for your previous help and I’d appreciate some more support. I have been directed to SSEN to report the A07 fault but they say they can only get involved when a metering engineer asks them to get involved. Can you help to understand who i should contact to arrange this as i keep getting passed from one place to another. @Transparent Your suggestion to take account of the Time-of use tariffs seems sensible but again i am not sure how to progress this as i haven’t spoken to anyone who can help me with this.

Transparent
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Well that’s a bizarre outcome @Ray780 

The fault codes I’m referring to are those which the Electricity Networks Association (ENA) requires 3rd-party meter engineers to use when reporting a safety issue to the regional Distribution Network Operator (DNO). These are specified in the MOCOPA Guide.

There are three levels of fault:

A: Emergency Codes - immediate attention required by DNO

B: Remedial Work Codes - to be rectified within a few days

C: Asset Condition Codes - to be investigated at some later date

They’re all related to safety, and in the case of Level-A faults, the Guide states

MOCOPA Guide p.12

Whyever wouldn’t SSEN want to respond to a Level-A code just because it’s been reported by a customer? That doesn’t make it any less serious.

If I could’ve found an appropriate Level-B or C code which relates to an exposed Neutral conductor, then I would’ve done so. But I can’t see one, and in any case, that isn’t the reason they’ve given for failing to properly respond.

 

As I see it you have four options:

1: Write (email) to SSEN under their Complaints Procedure. It’s more detailed than that used by OVO and has four steps before a matter could be taken to the Ombudsman. Make sure you provide the URL for this discussion here on the Forum.

2: Write to your MP, who has the authority to refer the matter to BEIS and/or Ofgem to seek their advice.

3: Write to Matt Allright at BBC Watchdog, who has already featured safety issues with the unsafe installation of some Smart Meters.

4: Any combination of the above!

 

We have discussed Time of Use tariffs several times here on the Forum.

The only Energy Supplier which has ever offered one is Octopus. It’s called Agile, but is currently not being offered to new customers due to the widely fluctuating price of electricity generated by gas-turbine sites.

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Jess_OVO
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Sorry to hear you’ve had difficulty in getting your DNO to respond when raising the safety issues our community members have spotted with your live neutral wiring, @Ray780.

 

It might also be worth raising this directly with your current supplier who are responsible for maintaining your meter setup so should report any issues following a ‘Site survey’ directly to the DNO.

 

Have you forwarded the photos you’ve posted here to your current supplier?

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I have spoken to SSE ( who have seen the photos ) and they have advised me to email photos and link to this forum to SSEN which i have now done. I will let you know how i get on as others may want to know.

Blastoise186
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Nice! It’s something we like to try and keep an eye out for when we’re helping out, just as a precaution. If it helps all of us sleep better at night, then it’s worth it.

Admittedly, there might be a few cases where we flag up a false positive, but I’d rather do a false positive than a false negative. At least with false positives, a second opinion from a qualified engineer can quickly put your mind at ease!

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Transparent
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Here’s some useful background information which might help put SSEN’s response into perspective.

Ofgem requires all Distribution Network Operators (DNOs) to change the way they work and become Distribution System Operators (DSOs).

Each DNO has had to publish detail of their transition. The ‘statement’ from SSEN is the least detailed I’ve yet seen, and contains hardly anything by way of commitment and public involvement!

In contrast, Western Power has provided extensive detail and engaged in public consultation regarding their moves to be a DSO, providing a neutral service to generators and consumers.

 

The DSO model should be less authoritarian to us consumers. The Distribution Company should be more flexible and responsive to us, allowing communication and partnerships which are less officious.

The Heat pump Trial being run by OVO is a good test-case for this new approach. In more rural areas with smaller substations there is greater likelihood of a Heat pump increasing the losses at the transformer. A DSO should be taking an interest in this and collaborating with OVO to mitigate the issue.

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P
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Hi how do we go about switching from our current 2 meter setup to a single meter so we can get a smart meter installed? 

Blastoise186
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Hi @Piebobs71 ,

To help me give you the best advice, please can you tell me if you’ve got Economy 7, Economy 10, THTC (Total Heat Total Control), Storage Heating Control, Heatwise, Superdeal or anything of that nature. Please also post photos of your current meters,

Thanks!

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Blastoise186
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I’m afraid I haven’t seen a reply from you, so I’ll try to answer this as best I can.

In general, you can just request a Smart Meter upgrade and if the two-meter setup is just Economy 7, OVO will allow that and do it all in one go. Try https://smart-booking.ovoenergy.com to see if you’re eligible.

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Emmanuelle_OVO
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Hey @Piebobs71,

 

Welcome to the OVO Online Community,

 

The following topics may be helpful to you:

 

 

Renewable Energy? Big Fan.

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