Time of Use (TOU) tariffs and how to compare your prices with other suppliers - discussion

@Transparent @Jequinlan I applaud the detail you have both put in this but feel this is over complicated for consumers.

If you consider currently available TOU billing tariffs there is not the option to select the energy source mix. There are products that are 100% renewables and some that are not. 
 

What is variable between tariffs is the cost per kWh at half hourly intervals or for fixed periods of time throughout the day (which may or may not change depending on time of year).

For the purpose of consumers comparing different energy tariffs you need to know how much and when consumption occurs in your daily use. It is also worth considering if any of these are flexible (EV charging periods etc).

Another variable for the comparison is if you have or are looking at generating your own electricity and potentially storing it.

Even just comparing several currently available TOU tariffs (which there aren’t many but set to increase hopefully) is very complex and is dependent on having consumption data which for most people is not easily available, or is not easily presented in a format that is useful for calculating costs. 
 

The key to being able to compare TOU tariffs is having access to your own historical consumption data at suitable resolution to allow the number crunching to happen. Without it there are an awful lot of assumptions and generalisations that will need to apply (similar to current comparison sites using the size of your house and number of occupants).

With this, data comparison software can show your current tariff and compare with other available tariffs. The clever part would be to make suggestions based on shifting flexible consumption to other time periods.

The holy grail would be able to decide if cost or environmental impact is your priority or a combination of both with a choice of bias in either direction. 
 

It would also be useful to calculate predictions of changes in personal circumstances, eg start working from home, purchase an EV (or additional EV), upgrade or add solar or battery storage etc etc

These calculations could be helpful for people wishing to investigate the costs and payback periods for green home improvements or perhaps see the maximum environmental benefits for their budget. 

@ArundaleP I think my thinking of the simplification in my last post was leaning to your comments but also valuing many people DO care about how electricity is produced. Indeed in all cases, access to the underlying billing data , plus then some indeed extrapolated “typical” life events that could be added to your actual usage would provide a great tool, but I do feel a simple indication of choice for energy sources also prompts the mind and drives the goal of zero carbon.

What I really want is an extract of data so I could see how easy it is to model as a comparison site.

@ArundaleP wrote:

this is over complicated for consumers

True. I haven’t (yet) put forward a User Interface for this model. We’re still a couple of stages back from that.  All I’ve proposed so far is a mechanism by which comparisons can be made between Energy Suppliers offering different Tariffs, which may or may not be Time Of Use.

If you consider currently available TOU billing tariffs there is not the option to select the energy source mix

Also true. And I think that’s appalling!

Nothing in the current strategies for Time Of Use tariffs takes into account the enormous change of public perception on Climate Change. Nor do such Tariffs address the Government’s international obligations for CO2 emissions, or their targets to achieve net-Zero by 2050.

Given OVO’s new Plan-Zero initiative, it would be utter hypocrisy if they were to retain the “pricing only” approach which Kaluza are presently using to incentivise those on the V2G charger Trial.

@Transparent I think it’s up to the suppliers what products they offer but hopefully they will acknowledge that consumers are increasingly desiring greener options and offer products to fit that demand.

As a consumer while there are options of cost vs green it is their right to choose.

I would like to see all tariffs zero carbon very soon and would happily pay more for that if that’s what is needed but not everybody can afford to pay more than they need to.  Ultimately we have a very short time frame (in terms of infrastructure investment periods) to change to net zero. At some point in the not so distant future, consumers will not be given a choice, all tariffs will be zero carbon.
 

I am on the V2G trial and don’t see the issue with the pricing only incentive you describe. It is a trial and an important research tool at that. To get people to sign up you can’t expect them to be out of pocket. It certainly doesn’t make you rich and would say until we had solar, it was costing us more than we could have paid through other suppliers (but I have just spent £6K on solar).

What V2G does do is lower the grid demand at peak times and consumes when it is best to do so, benefitting both the grid and the environment.

I would like to see more tariffs which incentivise consumption at times with the least environmental impact. Having Kaluza control V2G / V2H to minimise consumption at the worst times would be great and would save me money. 

I personally see V2G as part of a smart grid of the future as do many key people in the energy industry.

I believe companies like Kaluza will be key to enabling grid demand and generation management of consumer level devices in the future. Controlling a potential 40 million cars charging is pretty significant for the grid and that’s before you consider heat pumps and battery storage.

Time of use tariffs are a tool that can be used to shape the way consumers consume. Ultimately if there is more cost (environmental or financial) the consumer pays more. Generally people respond to that. 

Thanks @ArundaleP - and I think we’re closer in our aims than might be supposed from the ‘active’ discussion above. You wrote:

As a consumer while there are options of cost vs green it is their right to choose.

We are agreed. However, on a fixed-price contract that is readily selected. On a variable Time Of Use tariff it will have to built into the preferences. That’s one of the points I’m making. Ofgem shouldn’t permit TOU tariffs where the customer is unaware of the energy-mix when making a decision based on price. The two concepts are linked.

You wrote:

I am on the V2G trial and don’t see the issue with the pricing only incentive you describe.

Did you view the online Podcast in Feb20 where Tom Pakenham and Conor Maher-McWilliams discussed the commercial view of the V2G charger Trial?

It became clear that the framework in which it operates is defined by the investment from HMG and Mitsubishi, who need to be assured that this is financially viable. Only then could it ramp up to create a product to be available more widely. It was very interesting to understand how the Kaluza Platform has been set up to buy & sell on the per-minute wholesale price of electricity. But it did reveal that price alone was the factor used in the control system behind this particular trial.

You wrote:

What V2G does do is lower the grid demand at peak times and consumes when it is best to do so, benefitting both the grid and the environment.

No. This isn’t what is happening (yet).

The current Trial monitors only the National Grid and the wholesale price.

Almost all renewable energy connects to the Distribution Grid. Moreover the regions where the bulk of this is produced are under capacity constraints whereby the renewable power cannot be fed back to the National Grid. In times of excess generation, the Distribution Network Operators notify producers to remove their generation from the Grid in order to stay within the 253v AC maximum permitted supply to end-users.

I would agree that the Kaluza Platform has the potential to enable greater uptake of renewable energy and thereby help the environment, but that’s a separate issue to the driving factors behind the current Trial.

In fact, during this Trial, Kaluza did have the opportunity to run a test with one Nissan Leaf whereby its charging cycle was subject to data-input from a monitored substation. However, it was a theoretical-test only because the substation was in North Cornwall where there’s lots of wind-turbine generation, and the car was in Wiltshire. (That OpenLV monitor has now been removed due to the expiry of its operating licence).

It does feel as if the country has invested too little in infrastructure, and that generation capacity has been allowed without a requirement to either boost the inter-connects, or require storage capacity for low generation days. . 

I agree @EverythingNeedsAUserName - However the lack of “reverse power” capability at our Grid Supply Points now provides the opportunity to develop mass-distributed storage technology in a major offensive against the ravages of Global Warming.

This is going to require some effort to communicate the situation to our MPs and Ofgem so that the forthcoming Time Of Use tariffs are available to the public in such a way as to permit a preference for renewable sources.

Very few ordinary members of the public, like you & I, are even aware of the possibilities.

I am very fortunate in having an MP who is an enthusiast of micro-generation. That’s because it’s in the hands of his constituents... as opposed to some amorphous international company wanting to erect large wind-turbines on farmland for the benefit of their shareholders.

@Transparent Apologies if I sounds abrupt or confrontational, that is not the intention. I am not the best written communicator and the tone can be misunderstood 🙂, oh and I can ramble on!

I totally agree re the cost only principal behind the V2G business model but I feel the connection between wholesale price and CO2 though coincidental in most respect is there.
As an unintentional effect (though sold as a benefit) the Kaluza managed V2G does not charge the EV during the most expensive (and normally dirtiest) electricity, it also supports the grid during peak times by generating, therefore reducing the need to generate more electricity from dirty sources. 
 

There is no doubt that V2G, domestic PV etc  will not solve all the issues the grid faces for the future but it could assist. With increased renewables comes the problem of intermittent supply, grid scale energy storage is required in huge amounts to be able to realise net zero.  There should never be a situation where any renewable source of energy has to stop generating. I do believe more domestic generation and storage can help and should be encouraged. I don’t believe it should be a way for people to make significant amounts of money through the likes of FIT payments. The grid needs to adapt and encourage the uptake of local generation in a way that achieves net zero to be realised sooner. 
 

In my ideal world that would mean compulsory smart meters to all consumers and centralised data available for grid management. 
 

One of the biggest issues I see in the near future with mass transition to EV’s and heat pump adoption is a lack of management and control of these consumers of power. It seems that some form of standard is required rapidly to be able to reduce demand when required (not 20 competing and not compatible software platforms). 

There is currently nothing to stop anyone having a car charger installed on their own house that can consume 7+ kW whenever they feel like doing. If 40 million EV’s all plug in at 5pm while cooking dinner and boil the kettle whilst the heat pump is heating the house… you get the picture. Policy needs fixing now before it takes 20 years and is much more costly to remedy.

When net zero is achieved there will be no more spinning coal or gas plants to plug the gap in supply, instead V2G (or V2H), home battery storage etc can support domestic use at a domestic level. 

I also fee that the consumer / domestic customer market is at this stage not going to be able to dictate energy generation mix, it just doesn’t seem feasible. What is available is net zero tariffs (with some variability of how green these really are). 
Time of use tariffs are nothing new, economy 7 has been around for decades. With current smart meters half hourly consumption metering and charging is possible. The likes of Octopus Agile which is wholesale price based (and loosely cleaner / dirtier generation) encourage demand shifting and relieve the grid to some extent.  

What we can do and should do is ask for more zero carbon energy and vote with our feet if suppliers don’t play along with the demand. There are products available now that are 100% renewable (inc OVO). The industry also needs some reform and clarity regarding what is actually renewable.  The other issue is educating people that this matters and they can do something about it today. 
 

I am hopeful that discussions like this and people who care enough to be passionate about them, we will gain momentum to make change for the better. 

I will see if I can get you several months of ½ hourly data for you to model with. 
 

The point I was trying to make regarding the source of electricity is currently we only have the choice of renewables or not. At some point there will be no choice (net zero). I agree completely that people do care where their electricity comes from (me included) but I would imagine a comparison site of the near future would be able to filter based on generation source (a tick box for green).

Hopefully people will choose green energy for a slight increase in cost and appreciate the benefits. 

Just catching up on this thread - some very interesting points! 

This is one of the key learnings from this discussion for me - local renewable generation and it’s limitations based on location. 

Wind and solar is criticized by climate change deniers (or those of a similar mindset) for it’s unpredictability, due to dependencies on the weather.  But now I learn that it’s also limited by where it’s based vs where the demand is…. Surely centralised power stations are even more effected by this capacity limitation @Transparent ?

It begs the question of planning - why are these not more distributed throughout the country? I understand you can’t have a solar farm in Leicester Square, but are efforts being made to ensure renewable generation is efficiently optimised from a capacity perspective?