Can a Smart meter provide 2 off-peak time periods for an Economy 10 setup?

Hey there @Montego77 !

It sounds like you have something like Economy 7, is that right? If so, then I have good news for you and this also applies to Economy 10 too. 5-Terminal SMETS2 Smart Meters can indeed do this, very easily in fact. It’d simply be a case of the storage heaters being hooked up to the 5th Terminal and everything else on the regular terminals, just like you already have now. The meter installer can make sure this is set up correctly - simply make sure to let OVO know when you book the installation appointment and the engineer will make sure to bring the right meter with them. :)

The exact meter that will get installed can vary depending on the supplier and what the engineer has in the van, but the excellent Aclara SGM1412-B is a pretty common choice for these setups and does the job perfectly.

Thanks for your detailed reply. But you have not confirmed for certain that I will still receive 2 separate charge periods each day - one at night and the other in the afternoon. I am at present with EDF and have a 4-tariff meter( 24 hour weekday daytime; evenings; night; + off-peakheating). 

No worries, I can try to help with that too.

Thanks for letting me know what tariff you’re currently on, this helps a lot because I now know that you’re on a specialist tariff at the moment. Bear with me as I’ll need to look up some details. I’ll be right back.

Ok, thanks for waiting. I needed to check some details to make sure my theory was correct.

By the sounds of things, you currently have some kind of Complex Meter, which are sometimes known as RTS or DTS Meters if they’re controlled remotely. If you’re happy to show me some photos of your meters, this might help to make sure I’m on the right track.

Unfortunately, these meters are no longer installed by any suppliers and the support for them is being phased out soon - especially because the Radio Teleswitch Service is shutting down. This doesn’t affect any meters where a local timeswitch controls the switching, but it will effectively brick pretty much all meters that are managed remotely via the legacy RTS Service.

Upgrading to a smart meter with Economy 7 will definitely offer off-peak rates, but the exact times can vary depending on where you are. In some parts of the country, you’ll get a single overnight 7 hour block all in one go, while other areas split it up into two smaller blocks. If you’re happy to tell me what county or region you’re in, I can try to look this up. I don’t need to know exactly where you are, just the county is generally close enough.

Just as a heads up, if you do go ahead and switch the meter out, this will also require a tariff change and there’ll be no going back as it’s a one-way upgrade with no downgrade option.

Joining this subject as a confused SSE Customer - in response to SSE’s “Welcome to OVO” messages.

I am a Heat Pump User and have used  Economy 10 for 12 years. I have logged the dual rate usage for these years - being a techie chappie. Until 2021 was happy with SSE, and their meter.

Following enthisiastic marketing - gave way to a smart meter in October 2021, when SSE fitted a Landis Gyr meter and a  Home Display. The display  has lovely colours, menus, budget strategies, bells, whistles and ‘brightness control’.
BRIGHTNESS indeed!! - It cannot tell me my Standrad Rate Meter Reading nor my Off-Peak Meter Reading. Neither Bright nor Smart in my opinion.
Now to my question! - which SSE cannot understand, after repeated phone calls.

Is Rate 1 my Standard Rate, and therefor Rate 2 my Off-Peak Rate
OR
Is Rate 2 my Standard Rate, and therefor Rate 1 my Off-Peak Rate.
My reason for asking.
My overnight off-peak usage - is, under the control of a meter claiming to be smart, at a higher Cost Per KWhr. 
I have been dealt with very politely by SSE call-centre staff, who being aware of my advancing years keep persuading me that “everything is sorted out by themselves so that my bill will be accurate”

Any advice appreciated

Hi @Old Timer !

I’m Blastoise186, one of the forum volunteers here. Sorry for the slow reply, I help out on several forums and things have been crazy this weekend, so it’s slowed me down more than usual.

Based on what you’ve described, I think you’ve got a Landis+Gyr E470 meter. These can be rather fiddly I’m afraid, especially compared to the Aclara meters that OVO prefers to use.

I’ve had a quick chance to look around the internet for a usable guide and I think this particular YouTube video is probably the best guide I can come up with right now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP7XzaNTGlM .

Based on that video, holding down the B Button for five seconds and then pressing the A Button should switch between the two rates. It seems that Rate 1 is the Day Rate and Rate 2 is the Night Rate when it comes to Economy 7, so I’m assuming it’s a similar story for Economy 10 where Rate 1 is the Peak Rate and Rate 2 is the Off-Peak Rate.

We are planning to have better coverage for L+G meters on the forum with the guides here, but it’s taking a while to research and verify everything, so I’ve not had much chance to create any.

If things still don’t seem right, you may want to discuss this with the Support Team. It sounds like you’re currently being migrated to OVO, so you may want to call 0345 0260 712 to get through to the team assisting migrated SSE customers.

Hi Blastoise86,

Many thanks for your response - very prompt indeed, on such a busy week-end.
Your reply is what I was expecting, and for which I thank you, as it agrees with my own summation of my predicament.

Yes - mine is an E470 Landis Gyr, but with an EDMI WAN/HAN RF interface. This is a CS010A-08-82 unit and seems to keep good communication. 
I hope you didn’t mind my injection of humour, but I feel to have multiple YouTube links and Video downloads necessary to explain how to read the KWHr readings of what is essentially a KWHr meter doesn’t score too highly in my “Well Designed” league!!

My heat pump is set to run at off-peak times, and is a 4KW unit, so, following installation in 2009  I elected to benefit from the Economy 10 Tariff. The main loading of my Thermal Store by the Heatpump is set for overnight off peak times.

This is where I’m not geting through to SSE.!!!

At this time of year my Heat Pump uses approx 9 KWHr of power overnight.

At midnight, last night, my R1 (Standard Rate) reading was 1185 units.
At 7:30 this morning my R1 reading was 1194.

Yes, I can still do the maths - 9 KWHr difference!! I can also make the connection!
But this usage should be accumulating the Off-Peak R2 Rate and NOT the R1 Standard Rate. 

The last SSE  response suggested that I should not have ordered a Smart Meter while on Economy 10, as “there seem to be problems”. I ordered a Smart Meter in response to repeated appeals in SSE’s quarterly bills to grasp the advantages offered in the new SMETS2 meter.

I’m still being treated very decently by SSE folk, as individuals, but I’m now in my 5th month of trying to sort this out. I think my Smart Meter is incorrectly set-up, at the very least.

I’ve been very happy with SSE Hydro, surrounded as I am with Hydro Electric Schemes and Wind Farms. 

Thanks for your patience. Looking to the future - I better fill up my log store, and get some paraffin for the primus stove!

Hehehe, you can’t have all the fun you know! I’ve poked fun at L+G many times…

• The story of Ampy and Landis+Gyr: The strangest smart meter brand in the UK Blog

But to be serious, almost all of the issues you're seeing are the fault of L+G rather than OVO or SSE. Landis+Gyr just can’t seem to grasp the concept of “design a good User Interface and give a good User Experience”, let alone an excellent one.

In theory, any S2 Smart Meter should be capable of handling Economy 10, but some smart meters are smarter than others, and brands such as Aclara have put a lot more effort into that than others…

You’re in luck though, as I happen to have a friend who works at both SSE and OVO. I’d like you to meet him, so I’ll ask @Lukepeniket_OVO to stop by. If anyone can solve this puzzle, Luke most likely can. :)

Hi Blastoise86,

Many thanks for your helpful response.

Shall I now await a contact message/email from your colleague @Lukepeniket_OVO  ?

Cheers

Hi @Old Timer,

Sounds like you’ve recently joined us, Welcome. You’re joining the growing number of Air-Source Heat Pump owners, we’ve got here, so I understand the importance of making sure your energy is being charged on the correct register. 

Just to clarify @Blastoise186 is a fellow OVO member like yourself and whilst @Lukepeniket_OVO is our on-hand OVO engineer, this sounds to me like it could be a more account-specific issue. Whilst the registers on your meter could be set-up with either the register 1 or register 2 as the peak time register, a load test can help confirm which register is clocking for each time-period. A load test would involve checking the readings on both registers around midday and an hour or two later, only one reading should change during this time which confirms this is clocking your daytime usage. There are times when your registers may be accidently reversed on your account, meaning this register is being charged as the off-peak register in error. 

If so, and your account has now moved to OVO our Support Team will need to make sure a correction is made to both your old supplier and new OVO accounts so we’d recommend getting in touch with them, if you haven’t already.

Do let us know if this information is helpful in getting things back on track. 🙂

Hi again,
I’m still with SSE - but trying to clarify my Smart Meter status.

As a long retired engineer - I attempted my own load test and my of-peak usage (4:30 - 7:30), when only my heat pump is operating, is recorded as Rate-1, but listed in my Bill as Standard Rate. This is the area of confusion which needs “Tidying up” by SSE

Made a bit of progress yesterday…………. Maybe!!     Read on, if till awake.
Have been monitoring the display on the Landis Gyr E470 – and find that the  2 Economy 10 daytime off-peak times are both recorded as what the meter calls Rate 2 ALONG WITH ALL OTHER DAYLIGHT USAGE.   Thinks! ……. This is surely wrong.
BUT
Wait a minute!.... Do Economy 7 times not include an only-overnight off-peak Rate
Checking with Dr Google this morning – the fount of all knowledge:-

Directing me to SSE’s website, I find …….the eight hour off-peak period runs between 11:30pm and 7:30am during the winter and 12:30am and 8:30am during BST Summer Time.

Have now checked the Meter hourly for 24 hrs (tiring),  it seems to be on Rate1 all night, and Rate-2 all day.

I think my Smart Meter has been set-up for SSE’s Economy-7 Tariff.

My family can confirm that I’m walking around, still like an old man, but with a big smile on my face.

Old-Timer
(I used to be indecisive, but now – well, I’m not so sure)

SSE now assure me that their smart meter team will be in touch “within a few days” to sort out my Economy 10 problems. Must remain positive.
 

I have OVO engineers currently attending my home, attempting to get my SSE installed Smart Meter working on the Economy 10 Tariff, - a tariff I’ve been happy with since 2009.
Of particular confusion is the  OVO “Ultimate Guide to Economy 10”  website guidance pages clearly stating that “ There’s no such thing as an Economy 10 smart meter”
Does this explain why the first one fitted in 2021, the second in 2022  and now the third in 2022 all exhibit identical symptoms - that being the inability to record 3 reduced rate periods in every 24 hrs (Totalling 10 hours) All 3 smart meters - and Display units are of identical make,
As I await my transfer across from SSE to OVO, may I ask, on behalf of the many Ground Source Heat Pump users who find the Economy 10 tariff absolutely ideal - Does OVO offer a choice of tariffs for those requiring 3 ‘reduced rate’ periods.
Regards
 

Economy 10 Support… Coming Soon!(TM)

Excellent news. I’ll try and be a little more patient.

What is the low and high energy times with OVO on E10 

Hi,

I’m afraid they vary a lot, so you’re probably best off asking Support via https://help.ovoenergy.com .

Hi @Glyndwr there’s a guide here which might give you a clue but it is down to where you are. https://www.ovoenergy.com/guides/energy-guides/economy-10
and

https://www.ovoenergy.com/help/electric-heating/economy-10