Not happening. Vodafone’s 4G setup will only be used in the Southern Territory - and realistically only because it has to replace the existing 3G setup.

Arqiva has the Northern Territory contract with Long-Range Radio and that’s not changing anytime soon.

Thanks for the quick response, that's what I thought but that's not the impression I was given by the SMS advisor over the phone who was an ex Vodafone employee.

After the fourth failed attempt to commission the meters yesterday the SMS operator left and said there was nothing else he could do.

This ultimately I believe means that the meters will always be in “dumb mode” and will never communicate, this will also be true for a small percentage of the population. Given our close proximity to the transmitter I cannot see Arquiva installing more infrastructure one because of the expense and two because of the relatively small numbers of consumers affected.

If this is the case then as far as I am concerned the suppliers will have to start re-employing meter readers. I have not submitted any meter readings for the past eight months and refuse to do so until the issue is resolved. I've already had to pay out for a Shelly EM energy meter to monitor my consumption, I was promised a smart meter and that's what I want.

Note:- the property next door approximately 9 metres away is actively communicating with the Arqiva network and does not appear to have any issues.

Sorry for the rant but neither the energy supplier nor the meter installer seems to be bothered about the people who are slipping through the net and what will ultimately happen in these circumstances

Thanks again

I don’t think you’re telling us the full picture.

The meter not communicating despite trying six (!) different comms hubs makes it sound as if the problem is with the meter itself, especially since close neighbours are connecting as expected.

The comms hub is supposed to make the connection between the meter and both the WAN (Arqiva) and the HAN (your gas meter if present, and the IHD). Again, I don’t think a failure in one necessarily means a failure in the other, although Blastoise will know this for certain. Your mention of a third-party energy meter suggests that the HAN isn’t working either.

I’m not sure this is wise. It’s of no consequence to OVO if there are no recent readings on your account: they will simply estimate your usage and bill you accordingly. Estimates will get progressively further from the true situation and could mean either that you’re building up an inordinate credit balance, or you’ll be presented with a large bill once a reading is submitted. It’s in your own interests to submit regular readings if the meter’s not doing that for you.

As regards your original question, like Blastoise I’ve heard nothing about any change to the Long-Range Radio solution for the Northern Territory, so any such change is probably several years away. 

Then this probably needs to be raised to DCC as a No-WAN case. Only your Supplier can do that.

Winter Hill Transmitting Station appears to be in Lancashire, possibly somewhere near Chorley if memory serves.

With that in mind, just because Winter Hill is your nearest Arqiva Transmitting Station, doesn’t mean it’s got DCC equipment installed there. Arqiva installs DCC stuff wherever DCC tells them to - and ONLY where DCC tells them to. If Winter Hill doesn’t have said equipment installed, it looks like there won’t be many nearby as that particular Station is extremely powerful.

Additionally, a failure in one meter on the HAN to communicate won’t block the other - they communicate with the Comms Hub completely independently of each other by design.

Thank you Firedog and thank you Blastoise for your replies

The full picture is as follows; In November 2022 the equipment was installed Aclara SGM1412-B electricity meter with 420 coms module, GS-60B gas meter and Chameleon IHD meter. The installer tried to commission but it didn't work, walked away and said the equipment should sort itself out within the next 28 days. Meters were not communicating IHD did not work, WAN light flashing, HAN light permanently green.

July 2023 new guy turned up to commission the meters tried with the existing set up to no avail. He then replaced the 420 coms module with different modules from his van tried to commission again no success.

March 2024 another guy turns up with a replace/repair job card, he contacts his office and asks for the job card to be changed from repair to commission. He then attempts to commission the meters trying various different 420 modules he has in his van. He then turns off the power supply to the property reinstating it after ten minutes. A further attempt to commission the meters is made again without success.

April 2024 another guy turns up with a commission job card, he power cycles the meter and then attempts to commission without success. He changes out the 420 module tries to commission again without success. I asked him if he should have power cycled the replacement 420 module but he said the office had only told him to replace it. I then asked him if he would change the meter, he said he couldn't because this was a commissioning job only. I asked him what he thought the problem was, if it was lack of lrr signal could he change the coms module for a 3g module, he said he couldn't  do that as they were more expensive. However he did say there have been instances where the installer has incorrectly fitted a 3g module in the area. He also went on to say that there was nothing more to be done. After he had gone I contacted an SMS adviser on the phone, he looked at the history of all the visits and more or less said there would be no point making any further visits because it would be a waste of everyone's time. This is when he said the Vodafone 4g was on its way and I may have to wait for that for a solution.  

I had produced a report collating all the information from the first three visits listing all my comments and concerns and sent same said report to SMS hence the fourth visit in April 2024. When they rang up to make the appointment in April 2024 I was led to believe that they may replace the meter to determine where the problem was i.e. meter or signal but obviously that did not happen.

I have tried connecting the gas meter to the HAN using the menu on the gas meter, it does a search for the HAN and then comes back and says no HAN found.

Thank you also for your concern regarding submitting meter readings but I am not unduly worried. I read both the gas and electricity meters every day and put them in an excel spreadsheet and have done since May 2018, this allows me to calculate the cost of my energy use. I also take a picture on my mobile phone in the event that such evidence maybe required. I only agreed to the installation of the smart meters so that I wouldn't have to keep doing this.

Sorry to have taken up so much of your time and thanks again for reading this hope it makes sense

Thanks

OK, you seem to have done what any reasonable customer could be expected to (with the exception of not submitting readings, that is - I don’t understand your reasoning for this).

I take it that you still have the same Aclara SGM 1412-B that was installed in 2022. If this is the case, then I don’t understand at all why it hasn’t been exchanged, if only to rule that out as a cause of your woes. Even though the comms hub* is a separate unit, it is intimately connected to the meter (their term, not mine!) and I can well imagine that a malfunctioning meter could well cause the comms hub to malfunction, too, even though it might work well mated with a different meter. Blastoise knows much more about this stuff than I do, so he might be able to explain why the gas proxy in the comms hub doesn’t communicate with the IHD even if the electricity meter itself is incommunicado. 

How are you being billed? And paying? If you’re seeing estimates, how close are they to the truth? I can imagine a gross discrepancy arising after 18 months of no readings …

One last thought - have you checked that no data have ever got through to DCC? OVO are just one of many actors who can access your data, and occasionally they fail where others succeed. You would have to use a third party to do this; some of them are listed in this article: Energy usage data from third party Apps | The OVO Forum (ovoenergy.com)
  

*  There are only two variants of the EDMI 420 comms hub as far as I am aware. The dual band variant has the ability to communicate with the HAN over the 868 MHz band as well as the standard 2.4 GHz band, with a view to pushing the signal a bit further in difficult buildings. This should have no effect on its ability to connect to the WAN.

The only thing the ICHI on the Electric Meter does is basically provides power to the Comms Hub - it serves no other function. With that being said, if there is no WAN, then it’s not possible to commission ANY functions on the system - let alone the Gas Proxy.

By the way, please don’t mess with stuff in the Engineering Menu - it’s not meant for you.

Not submitting the meter readings is a point of principal, we as consumers are paying on our bills for the implementation of the smart meter rollout, the smart meter should be sending in the readings not me. It’s a bit like keeping a dog and barking yourself.

As I said before I keep my own records, I know how much gas and electricity I have consumed to date, I know how much that consumption has cost to date and I know how much money the supplier has taken from my account in direct debits. I know therefore that the account is currently in credit and the supplier owes me money. Having read all the horror stories about unscrupulous suppliers increasing direct debits unnecessarily I have taken the decision to monitor and control my own energy finances. If the supplier wishes to increase/decrease the direct debit at any time I have my own records to compare with. In terms of accuracy my accounts show the costs up to the previous day at any one time. The supplier accounts are at least a month out of date because that's their normal billing period.

One of the main reasons for accepting the smart meter installation was the ability for me to receive the information from a third party so I signed up for a Bright account with the intent to purchase one of their IHD’s. I gave them all of my details, name, address, MPAN number etc. Bright have confirmed that the meter is not communicating with the DCS.

You can also check on the Citizens Advice website again you just confirm your address and MPAN number. The Citizens Advice web page has also confirmed that the meters are not communicating with the DCS.

By the way there is a third version of the 420 coms unit albeit just a different method  of installation. The 420 module is removed from the electricity meter and mounted remotely, a cable is then installed between the meter and the remote module. The cable I understand is relatively short just a few hundred millimetres so whether or not this is a viable option is debateable. The guy on the third visit mentioned this but he said it wasn't worth trying.

I still have the original Aclara meter that was installed in November 2022, I still have the original GS-60B gas meter and the original Chameleon IHD7 display (no longer under warranty but has never worked). I don’t know if the 420 module is the original module as it has been changed out several times.

Thank you for clearing that up.

Is this warning directed at me or MASSO? I’m not even sure which menu you’re referring to, and I don’t think MASSO has mentioned anything of the sort.

The smart meter engineering menus are password protected and therefore inaccessible to the members of the public. However in the case of the gas meter HAN menu which I accessed, this is already in the public domain. Sites like Scottish Power and Utility Warehouse give detailed instructions as to how to reconnect / re-join an EDMI gas meter 2nd generation to the smart meter network, this requires access to the gas meter HAN menu. Both sites give detailed instructions on how to do this.

Thanks 

Just a thought seeing that your neighbour appears to have no problem connecting.

Is there anything unusual about your property construction or the meter location?
I’m thinking about metal in the walls or near the meter (metal cabinets, etc.) which may be creating a Faraday Cage effect and blocking the radio signal?

PS. I’ve been up Winter Hill a number of times (although a while back) and there are a lot of radio masts up there, you can see some of them in a picture in the article linked below, the big white one that can be seen for miles around is only for TV signals.
https://lancashirepast.com/2022/09/17/winter-hill-transmitter-belmont/

Nukecad

House was built in the 60’s so the meter and the consumer unit are on the same backboard. The meter is located next to the consumer unit which is manufactured from steel. In order to comply with the latest edition of BS 7671 (IEE regulations) all consumer units have to be manufactured from fireproof materials eg steel or housed in a metal cupboard. The meter and consumer unit are at the front of the house in a single brick porch, there are no metal elements within the construction that could form a Faraday cage. I’ve already asked the installer if this could be a problem, he said no this was a typical installation for them. 

This morning my wife received a telephone call from the SMS advisor, he said that they had done all that they could and that they would not be making any further visits as it was a waste of resources.

He went on to say that we would have to wait until next year when 4G will be available, he asked my wife to go and stand by the meter and check if she could receive a 4G signal on her mobile phone. 

I have come to the conclusion therefore that the smart meters will always be dumb for any one of the following reasons that is why I posed the question “what will happen under similar circumstances when there isn't any 4G or long range radio signal”:-

1. They have not definitively proven if the original meter is at fault (some one on the forum suggested it could be) or not
2. They have not definitively proven the lack of long range radio signal, they don’t have any suitable test equipment to measure one way or another
3. They are telling me to wait until next year which suggests no pressure will be put to bear on Arquiva to improve the long range radio signal (if this indeed is the problem)
4. They are telling me to wait for 4G which should be available some time next year, we are in the northern part of the country and I’ve also been told that 4G is only going to be available in the south not the north.

Definitely conflicting advice there, including that on CUs.

They don't have to be metal, that is just an example, “eg. Steel ...” there are plenty of high temperature resistant plastic ones being sold and fitted daily. (See Screwfix etc).

PS. My own housing association property was built in 2001 to the regs pertaining at the time, and has a plastic CU.

Nukecad

Don't really want to go in to the debate regarding the types of materials that domestic consumer units are manufactured from as its a little off topic. Suffice to say the regulations have been changed and I think you will find the vast majority of domestic installers will opt to fit steel consumers units in new installations and in cases where upgrades are required. This is much easier than trying to install a plastic consumer unit in a fire rated cabinet. Our consumer unit was changed because we had an extension built which effectively meant the house had to be rewired.

I think also these days trying to obtain a plastic unit from any of the major manufacturers would be quite difficult most of them have switched to steel.

 The point I was trying to make was that yes we have a steel consumer unit which is next to the smart meter on the same backboard. This will also be true for other older properties such as ours where the consumer unit has or has to be upgraded. 

If this arrangement does have an impact on the smart meters ability to receive or transmit a signal then this is just another example of what the designers and implementers of the smart meter rollout have failed to take into account

Fair enough, and of course you are not going to change the CU that is fitted without having good cause to do so,
(However the IEE regs actually state the CU casing must be or must be enclosed in “Non-combustible material” - metal/steel is just an example given of a common material that complies as being non-combustible, other materials can also comply with the requirement).

In an email I received from the DCC in August they said differently, so it sounds like it is coming. I am counting on it!

”In the North of the UK we use Long Range Radio WAN and one of the potential solutions we are exploring is using 4G cellular network in this region. The technical solution is already being developed and tested ready for deployment in 2025 to replace our existing 2G & 3G cellular networks.”

Any thoughts on the above @Blastoise186 ?

@Emmanuelle_OVO 

Something to do with this perhaps?

Good spot @Nukecad!

I don’t think that’s related, it seems to be more to do with the HAN side of things? And a requirement of being involved in that pilot is a meter that is already successfully communicating - not much help if the intention is to resolve cases where there is no WAN?

It also implies that comms hubs can’t be swapped without also swapping the whole meter, which isn’t the case as far as I’m aware. 

There’s some confusion here. This is the situation as I understand it:

1. Vodafone has been awarded a 15-year contract to provide smart meter communication over its LTE 4G network. 
2. Telefonica (O2) currently holds the contract to provide 2G/3G communication in the CSP Central and South region; it expires in 2028.
3. The improvement to the WAN in the CSP North region involves a hybrid solution involving a communications hub (CH) capable of connecting via either the current Arqiva Long-Range Radio (LRR) network or, failing that,  an available 4G network, using a provider-agnostic SIM.
   This is apparently unrelated to the Vodafone arrangement at (1). The SIM in a SMETS1 CH was, I think, also provider-agnostic, cherry-picking the best signal it could get.
4. It’s not clear whether the pilot we’ve been invited to take part in is related to (1) or (3) or both, but in view of the requirement for having a CH already communicating, it’s most likely at this stage just to be testing the Vodafone solution (1).

Corrections, amendments and other comments welcome 

The same email from DCC also mentioned this as another solution they are exploring for the north region:

“We’re also looking at using the Wi-Fi signal in the home, working towards a small technical pilot of this solution in late summer 2024.”

This would be a great solution since 99% of houses have some form of internet connection and there’s no reason why it couldn’t be used securely with the correct tech. 

I’ve also been a bit unclear whether the Coms Hub Pilot that a few of us have signed up to is primarily more about HAN or about WAN.

Reading it again it does talk briefly about 4G WAN. But it then goes on to talk mainly about HAN.

….. The trial will hopefully allow us to swap your standard smart meter comms hubs with a new one without needing to exchange/replace the entire smart metering system within your home.

 

In the future this capability will help us to exchange and replace existing comms hubs with newer dual band and 4g variants to overcome in-home challenges associated with poor or low signal. 

I though that coms hub only swaps were fairly routine these days, see the OP of this thread, so there must be more than just that to the pilot.

Two birds, one stone. 

• Dual band: using 838kHz instead of 2.4MHz for the HAN to help penetrate, say, multiple storeys in a block of flats.
• Dual mode: LRR or 4G for the WAN in the North region.

Perhaps one new generation of 4G hubs will come dual-band as standard. This won’t help those in the North region, unless they live (as many do) in houses with, say, thick stone walls. Those houses may or may not be in range of LRR, but might be helped by a different generation of dual-mode CH if LRR struggles to reach them.

Looks like the others beat me to it. :)

I’ll let you know if I have more thoughts.