Hi @Uncle K - you are definitely in the right place! Welcome to the Forum.

Looking at your overall desire to install 12kW of PV Solar Panel, you must retain all three phases to your property. The inverters used for grid connection will be certified to G98, which permits export of no more than 16A per phase (~4kW).

I anticipate OVO having 3-phase Smart meters available sometime before Christmas. There are three aspects to this

• the availability of the physical meter. (No problem - already done)
• the training of OVO staff, both for installation and for diagnostics in-house. Constrained somewhat by Covid-19, but achievable.
• ensuring compatibility with the in-house Billing System

This last one is totally within OVO’s control because they have their own programming team. Have a look at the “prompt” posted just this morning to one of the Moderators who is looking into this for us.

Hold fire on the matter of Storage Radiators. If OVO are prepared to offer a genuine Time Of Use tariff, then these could prove to be useful to take excess renewable generation at very low cost.

We are discussing this scenario on another Topic about TOU tariffs.

Please complete your Forum Profile page. Whereabouts you are in the UK will affect some of our suggestions. Thanks

Big thanks for the replies.
We're in West Sussex and will be happy to share how we get on with solar panels.
We're going for GSHP and UFH so we are very keen to ditch the storage heaters (which are only in a very small bit of the house anyway) but thanks for the thought - I guess never say never.
Cheers
K

UFH eh?!

So have you noticed that I’m writing an introductory series on UFH here on the Forum?

If you’re going to combine GSHP and UFH, I presume you’ll have a thermal store. An immersion heater in that would be another way to take electricity at very low rates if you migrate to a Time Of Use tariff.

I wish I’d bought my thermal store with two positions for immersion-heaters. The one position it has is presently used with a 30v immersion, acting as a dump-load for a small wind-turbine. So I’ll have a tricky decision to make if TOU tariffs become available.

Even so, don’t ditch the bricks from the storage radiators. I have a load here ready to install as a heat-dump below the central path in a greenhouse

Hi @Uncle K I’ve just confirmed our latest position with regards to 3 phase supplies and smart meters, which I posted in this topic:

I can confirm that there’s still no time frame which we can provide, for when we’re manufacturing and installing smart meters for 3 phase supplies. 

We will be able to take on 3 phase supplies with other S2 model smart meters, but “the polyphase project in OVO is still in the feasibility stages at the moment….. If OVO have to do some internal development to send polyphase specific requests to the meters then we won't be able to fully support these meters from other suppliers until that work is done, but we would still be able to communicate with them to get readings’. 

@Transparent I know of lots of customers with solar and single phase supplies (we have topics on SMETS1 export queries) with smart meters. Can you elaborate on why it’s essential to keep this 3 phase set up when Uncle K gets his solar fitted? 

Sure @Tim_OVO - He wants 12kW of solar.

You can only attach 4kW (max) to a single-phase.

3 x 4Kw = 12kW 

Thanks folks  . Does this mean that OVO can fit an S2 model smart meter for my three-phase set up? Or someone else?

Cheers

Uncle K

It means that they can’t yet do so, @Uncle K.

@Tim_OVO  seems to be re-quoting an answer from a technical source within OVO. They are still evaluating the technology required to run 3-phase SMETS2 Smart Meters on their new Billing System.

It is the Billing Software which sends the SMETS_Read commands to the customer sites and receives the responses. It must then calculate the payment due based on the net import/export figures (what we’re calling “vector sum metering”). Simply adding together the totals for each phase doesn’t work!

If you have a look at this other Topic, it announces that a rival Energy Supplier has installed a 3-phase Smart Meter. That doesn’t mean that it was successful of course. It has to be integrated into the Billing system in such a way that the customer could still choose to switch to another Supplier in future. There’s a lot more to this than simply installing the meter.

*Literally @Transparent knows more then me on this* 

Yep my advice is to get that solar installed and stick with your 3-phase non smart meter. 

If in the coming months we or another supplier is able to provide a smart meter to accommodate this 3-phase supply, then you’re able to choose to get this fitted and you will be able to measure your exact export. Until then, your Feed in tariff (FIT) will use an estimated method using the readings from your generation meter. 

Thanks @Tim_OVO . Although we indeed have a three phase supply to our house, only two of the phases are connected. We have three old-style meters as one of the phases also has a low tariff meter for a few storage heaters (which we don’t use). So we don't have "your 3-phase non smart meter" - and I thought the Feed in tariff scheme was closed to new applications? That was the basis of my original question about two single phase meters - which doesn't seem to be possible.
I understand I have to wait until the three-phase smart meter becomes available but the conundrum is what to do in the interim - not only are we fitting solar panels but also remodelling and need to move the meters anyway - I was hoping to put new meter(s) in the new location rather than two steps of moving existing meters and then replace them with a new meter.
Nothing is simple!
But your help continues to be appreciated.
Cheers
K

Closure of the Feed-in Tariff scheme  

On 18 December 2018, the government announced their decision to close the FIT scheme to new applicants from 1 April 2019. No new applications made to the FIT scheme from 1 April 2019 will be accredited, subject to some limited exceptions. For more information, please visit the Ofgem website.

I’m not sure where this leaves us, @Uncle K. I’ve come to the conclusion that some of our volunteers know a lot more about a lot of things then me. So I’m hoping that we can get you some advice on two things:

1. What solar panel options you have out there to export generation back to the grid (we might move this answer into a new topic to help others). @Transparent ?
2. What options you have for meter exchanges, meter work, to ensure compatibility your 12kW of solar. @PeterR1947 ?

My solar panels are currently directed to off-grid storage @Tim_OVO so I’m not the right person to ask.

Check with your team running the Sonnen Home Battery Storage in Lincoln area. There’s still an obligation for the Panels to be installed by an MCS Accredited company because OVO requires the Renewable Obligation Certificate in order to balance the tariff being applied.

Someone else will know more about this than I do. Feel free to correct what I’ve just written.

More information on three phase meters in a previous thread here:

Do you actually have 12kW of PV Panels, @PeterR1947 ?

Or did I misunderstand what @Tim_OVO wrote above?

@Transparent  I wish!

2.82kW here, that was all I could afford in 2011 but still my best ever investment!

This is the predicament @Uncle K finds himself in:

If we can’t find any community support, I’ll be digging around internally next week on your behalf, @Uncle K - it’s a tricky one for sure this! 

Do we have any meter engineers in this community? I’d very much like to meet you if you are/were…. these situations are likely to be a simple and enjoyable puzzle for you. For me, it’s a lot more tricky…..

This is great that folks are providing info. Planning permission arrived so remodelling can start - the electrics is a few months away but should be before Christmas.

Keep it coming!

Cheers

Uncle K

As I don’t work for OVO, @Uncle K - I can suggest a cheeky way of getting a 3-phase SMETS2 meter faster:

The first real-life installation of a 3-phase meter for a domestic customer is Good Energy.

Looking at the official response from within OVO that Tim has quoted above, it reads “… we won't be able to fully support these meters from other suppliers until that work is done, but we would still be able to communicate with them to get readings”

That means you could ditch your existing OVO contract, switch to Good Energy on condition that they install your preferred meter, and then switch back to OVO.

I’ve now got 2 days grace before @Tim_OVO arrives back on Monday morning and finds what I’ve just posted!

Knowing your luck @Transparent@Tim_OVO  will log on from home 

Some unbiased community support there, that’s why a forum like this is best for customer service! I could never advise such a thing, and won’t comment on it here. 

@PeterR1947  I gave Transparent the heads up on Friday that I was ‘offline’ this weekend (for once) as I had my 9 day old nephew to hang out with. So he knew he had a decent time window to work with. What a pro

What do we think, @Uncle K - and whatever you choose, please keep us update here! 

Thanks for this and apologies for taking so long. I’m still prevaricating - and also waiting for more of timetable/schedule from my builder and electrician and solar panel installer as to when I need this by. I also need to look down at my shoes as I admit that I am not an OVO customer at the moment (gasp) and not a Good Energy customer either. My current supplier - cheapest at the time with reasonable service recommendations - is Bulb - but I’m waiting on reply from them on this subject - and I guess no news is bad news.

Cheers

Uncle K

This is an industry-wide issue @Uncle K and therefore needs airing here regardless of which Energy Supplier each of us has.

Let’s note that we’ve heard nothing more from Good Energy’s media staff since that first announcement of a 3-phase meter installation. That makes me wonder if the software support is really yet functional to provide accurate invoices. Remember that the “customer” for the initial installation is a senior manager at Good Energy!

I’d still like @Tim_OVO to confirm that I’m correct in my assumption that OVO only accepts new Solar Panel arrays that have been installed by a MCPS-registered company because they require the ROC (Renewables Obligation Certificate) in order to recover the annual income.

This affects my technical input to the Topic. I can conjecture some interim solutions which might help in the short term whilst the metering and billing gets resolved. But those are to no avail if @Uncle K has to recall an MCPS-certified installer to site every time he wants to make a change.

I’d also like to know if the OVO customers in the Woodhall Spa are who are on the Kaluza/Sonnen Battery Storage Trial are using SMETS2 meters and OVO’s new Billing System. Or have they had to be down-graded to SMETS1 meters, as has happened to the 400-odd sites on the V2G charger Trial?

All these pieces of information are needed if sites like @Uncle K ‘s are wanting to start installing renewable micro-generation hardware without getting their fingers burnt.

Have a look at this page which outlines:

How do I sign up for Smart Export Guarantee?

Just fill out our application form here. Then, email us your:

• Proof of ID showing your full name – like a valid passport, driver’s licence, birth certificate, or firearms licence.

• Proof of ownership for your installation – it can be a paid-in-full invoice, or a letter from your installer, building contractor or solicitor that shows you’re the owner. If the system was already installed when you moved into your home, you’ll need a Land Registry document, and a Fixtures and Fittings form – all clearly showing your name and your address.

• Proof of address – like a utility bill, or a bank, building society or credit union statement from the last 3 months. You can also send us a council tax bill, an electoral register entry, or an HMRC tax statement for the current year.

• An MCS certificate or equivalent – you should get this from your installer. You’ll see the certificate number at the top of the document (it’ll look like this: MCS-01234567-A). Or, you might get a Flexi Orb certificate (the number for this will be in the middle of the doc and it’ll look like this: Flexi-01234567890).

• Distribution Network Operator (DNO) notification.

“Equivalent”, @Transparent - that indicates it’s not a prerequisite. Will you be wanting more clarity on this (he asks, knowing the answer already)?  

I’m asking this question for you as well, leave it with me :)

Back with an update on this one - Are you a single rate 3 phase OVO member interested in upgrading to a Smart meter? 

If so we’re interested to hear from you - Send a PM to myself or @Tim_OVO for more details...

Huh? Does this mean what I think it does…?

I’m unsure if @Jess_OVO can answer that @Blastoise186 although I may be doing her a disservice.

It was a year ago when we poured over this problem on the Forum.

The issue wasn’t just that OVO needed to test out a 3-phase SMETS2  Smart Meter and train engineers to install them. The much bigger problem was the software required within the Billing System to accommodate polyphase operation.

If a domestic site has 3-phases operational it’s much more likely that they are simply splitting their loads between those phases rather than driving 3-phase equipment (as occurs in industry). They are also more likely to have storage and generation equipment. Dividing the export across the phases circumvents a couple of issues regarding the G99 certification with the DNO.