Effect of Smart Meters on AV2 Homeplug Ethernet Networks

A neighbour of ours had a similar concern - he went to Citizens Advice and was told that the meter going beyond its certification period does not require a replacement. Only if the meter is unsafe - for which there is a burden of proof on the energy company would it need to be replaced. 

Energy companies cannot force you to leave, under threat of a smart meter installation or disconnect your supply if you do not have a smart meter fitted - even if your current meter is outside of certification. 

He’s had an uncertified meter for a long time now with no issues.

Your neighbour had bad advice. That’s unusual for CAB...

Uncertified Meters must be replaced by law. Gas Act 1990 and Electricity Act 1989 require Suppliers to use only a Certified Meter and not an Expired one, otherwise they can’t legally bill a Customer.

Yeah, apologies, just spoke to my neighbour and his situation was slightly different. He has a MID electric meter which doesn't expire - his supplier was either unaware or was trying to force him to get a smart meter and had given him the wrong info. They also wanted to replace his gas meter for the same reason and apparently those don't expire at all!

This is useful: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/energy/energy-supply/your-energy-meter/getting-a-smart-meter-installed/

Actually, all meters expire eventually - MID is just the standard.

It sounds like your neighbour has a weird type that might not be used for billing. I’d need to see a photo to be sure.

Thanks for that helpful reply!

I think I will have to just wait and see.

If necessary, I would go for the Cat 6 professional wiring solution despite the expense. Best to lay it along the skirting boards and round door frames I would think and obviously drill through walls only where necessary.

Unfortunately I would have to seek the permission of the Flat Management Company which might not be forthcoming.

I would be very sorry to lose my AV2 network. The Homeplug Manufacturers only supply Management Software for Windows and MAC which excludes me as a Linux only user. Fortunately Qualcomm Atheros provide their free open-plc-utils suite for Linux and I have been able to build my own layer on top of that to give me a comprehensive set of Homeplug management tools tailored to my needs.

As a further question, if post Smart Meter installation AV2 no longer works and I can’t get permission to lay Cat 6, what would happen if I switched to using G.hn devices for my own network? Does G.hn support the same concept of multiple NMK (Network Management Keys) as AV2? I’ve tested that out and it works perfectly with complete logical isolation between the networks. No need to do complicated VLAN stuff with Routers and Switches. So would a Customer’s G.hn network happily coexist with an Alt HAN G.hn network?

​@AGuy thanks for your interesting post.

I’m happy to see you’re getting some great help here from ​@Blastoise186 and ​@woodstok2000.

Just to clarify, from an OVO standpoint, meter certification is an Industry-wide policy and we legally have to change meters that are out of certification, otherwise this can be a real safety hazard. 

Using mains wiring for data transport is a bonus. It's not designed for that.

Smart meters will be certified to RFI/EMC standards that will not cause issues due to RFI radiated from connected cables and from the communications hub and will be required to accept any RFI that will normally be impressed on the cables due to other meters and other mains equipment such as switch mode power supplies, electric vehicles etc connected to the mains. All of these devices are certified to work without interference to each other (ElectroMagnetic Compatiblity) but that does not include devices specifically designed to communicate with each other over the mains wiring.

The issue might not be your meter either but the smart meter from your neighbour especially if you are on a looped supply where one phase is shared between neighbouring houses.

I hope it continues to work properly.

Peter

Thank you Peter E for that helpful response.

Your statement “Using mains wiring for data transport is a bonus. It's not designed for that.” raised a wry smile. Isn’t that exactly what Alt HAN / G.hn is relying on?

The supply to our block of flats is three phase (needed for the lift) and the flats are evenly split across phases to provide their individual single phase supplies. So if two flats on the same phase are both using Alt HAN technology doesn’t that mean that we have two G.hn networks on the same wiring? Obviously protected from each other by firmware keys and encryption but still able to interact at the electrical level? Perhaps I am wrong in thinking that. But for Alt HAN to work with an In-Home DIsplay which is unable to work on 2.4GHz due to range issues it must allow G.hn to pass through the Consumer Unit so the latter cannot act as a G.hn firewall.

Anyway I am slightly cheered by your and other responses. Given that my present AV2 network operates virtually flawlessly it may be that it can take a partial hit from noise without too much degradation.

I might consider purchasing a couple of G.hn adapters and doing some testing with them operating alongside my existing AV2 setup to see how well or how badly they get along. Unfortunately it seems that there is currently no G.hn management software generally available in the Linux domain with such comprehensive facilities as QA’s open-plc-utils suite.

Thanks again.

In theory, Alt-HAN and G.hn should play nice together - you’ve got much higher chances with that than with HomePlug stuff.

As for the configuration utilities… If you’re willing to go to the dark side you could try running them via Wine (and then remove it when you’re done), but I can’t make any promises they’ll play nice even with that.

Otherwise… You might just have to run cables around the property itself. I use Ubiquiti UniFi kit myself - but I’m too lazy to smash through walls, so I also just run 50m CAT6 between the switches in my lounge, hallway and bedroom (secured with 3M Command Strips!)… Cuz I’m that guy… Yeah, my landlord hates me.

And yeah, it’s totally normal to be replying at 2am with tech geek stuff that the Forum Moderators have no idea about! XD

Thanks for the update.

I’ve since discovered that Devolo have a free-to-download software utility named Cockpit with Windows, Mac, and Linux versions. It works with both their AV/AV2 and G.hn products. It will also partially work with other manufacturers’ products probably to the extent of recognising them in a network but not allowing configuration changes. Devolo’s Magic2 kit is well specced but more expensive than most and I’ve seen a number of comments that the UK versions of their G.hn pass through plugs run hot which can have a negative effect on their performance (whereas the plugs for the German market with a different form factor are likely OK). Also trawling through comments on Amazon and the like I’ve seen some posts saying that replacing AV2 by G.hn didn’t improve matters significantly and sometimes actually made things worse. Of course there were plenty of other posts saying the reverse.

I’m not sure that Cockpit would work under WINE though. When you suggested removing WINE after use was that for security reasons? Windows Malware can do damage under WINE but only to files to which it has write access; usually just the local user’s home directory hierarchy rather than to the OS. So one could run in a dummy user which had no other purpose.

Although I use the QA open-plc-utils suite, I have experimented using Solwise’s own AV utility in a Windows VM under VirtualBox. It worked fine - needed to set the Virtual Network Adapter to Bridged Mode and allow Promiscuous Mode. However I prefer the QA software with my own scripts on top.

Are you using Flat Cat 6 cable to get under doors? And if so what is the minimum clearance they need?

Many thanks.

If mains wiring was set up to transport data then it would be twisted to minimise RFI both outgoing (leading to signal attenuation) and incoming (preventing it acting as an antenna). The fact that it works is probably due to the clever noise dodging algorithms built into the protocol but as a radio engineer I know of plenty of sites where this would stand no chance of working.

Peter 

My comment was made tongue in cheek and not intended to gainsay anything in your original reply so apologies if it came over badly.

It just struck me that the unfriendly environment of a mains network would be the same for superimposing a G.hn data network on top as it would for an AV2 data network.

So the argument for G.hn being superior to AV2 rests on it having even cleverer noise dodging algorithms and possibly a wider frequency range.

Having both G.hn and AV2 having to dodge one other on the same electrical network would be the worst possible situation.

Not at all. So many people don't understand the technology that they use (that I use as well)  and sometimes don't understand why it stops working when it used to or never worked at all when a friend of theirs has no problem. It's  a minefield even to the extent where there is evidence that a smart meter communications hub was tripping an RCD in a nearby consumer unit every day in the early hours. It was cured (I think) by choosing a different make of RCD and the likely cause was most likely resonant mains wiring and an RCD that was susceptible to that frequency. So interactions with other tech happens all the time and sometimes you never find the root cause.

If you have a smart meter fitted I think it is highly unlikely it will cause an issue (I run internet over mains with a smart meter and it doesn't seem to be an issue) but individual circumstances vary and you can’t tell until you try it.

As for EVs charging, some push so much noise back up the mains wiring (a 7kW switch mode power supply ~10kHz + harmonics) that it can even make a consumer unit ‘sing’ much to the annoyance of the home owner.