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Overcharging for storage heaters- Charge peak rates, at off peak times

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I am on Economy 7 from 12 to 7.. At precisely 7.00 a.m. every day tariff changes to daily rate as verified by smart meter console (which readings tally exactly with my bill every month). However the storage heaters do not switch off until 7.06. This means that every day I am charged for 6 minutes at the daytime rate when there should be no charge at all. The smart meter was fitted new a year ago. When I realised what was happening I contacted Ovo thinking this was a timing issue which could be remotely adjusted. Ovo however decided to send an engineer to check the meter, After they had twice cancelled the appointment they then decided to try the remote method. This didn`t work however so they decided to fit a new meter. They then cancelled this latest appointment and made another. Then the contractor (SMS) rang to cancel this one and made another, an engineer finally turning up with new meter last week. He was adamant however that the meter was not at fault, saying that it had been set wrongly and after much work on his phone said that it was now done correctly and the heaters should go off at 7.00. Of course they didn`t so I am now waiting for another phone call from Ovo to doubtless make another appointment.

My question is - is this a common occurrence? Their reluctance to put this right makes me wonder if Ovo are deliberately setting the timers to run on after time? Perhaps others should check their heaters to see what time they actually go off.

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Best answer by Tim_OVO 23 March 2023, 16:50

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Blastoise186
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This is actually something that can be updated remotely and an engineer visit is not required. The ALCS Calendar probably just needs tweaking - Support can arrange this!

It doesn’t happen often and 99% of the time it truly is an easy fix.

Securing energy by zapping security bugs... For that is The Blastoise Way!
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Thanks for the quick reply but they have already tried this - twice. The girl in he office arranged it, with no effect. Then as I mentioned the engineer sat there for the best part of an hour while someone on the other end of his phone allegedly fixed it. I`m getting fed up wth this, it`s been going on for months now. All these cancellations - the meter is in a separate building and I have to get the key from the landlord in the next town! I`m getting up every morning at five to seven to switch it off and it`s not good for me 75 years old. Furthermore two of the cancellations I was given £30 for short notice cancellation. The latest one however cancelled the night before they are refusing because the appointment was not made by them but by their contractor. So I have to suffer because they dont know what they are doing - you couldn`t make t up.

Tim_OVO
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Updated on 22/11/23 by Abby_OVO

Hi @dmacbrew, I’ve got some updates advice on this:

 

@Blastoise186  we think that’s not quite right as you may have confused the switching of the ‘ALCS’ with the ‘Randomised Offset’ value on the meter.

 

To clarify, every meter must have a randomised offset applied to the registers when they switch. So every meter on a 2 or more rates will have a offset of anything up to 10 minutes applied. There is a good reason for this and it's mandated in the obligations upon suppliers that this is there. It cannot be 'fixed' or removed. No amount of setting changes or jobs to replace will get rid of the meter behaving in this way, the only thing that will happen, if you change the meter is another offset value will be set. 


To explain, the meter has to generate a random number. That number is then multiplied by an amount of seconds and the outcome of that is applied to the register AND the billing rates too. If the meter has a 6 minute offset this applies to both the switching time (we can read how much is applied too as their Supplier) and the charging. So the 6 minutes is applied across the board..  there is no 6 minutes charged at a higher rate because of this. So it will be switching 07:06 to 00:06 and the costs of the energy will apply to the energy used in those times.

 

We have made a rather poor effort in informing our customers of how the meters and overall solution actually works but we’re working on it!

Carbon neutral - we need a community to get there! My green tech: Aclara SGM 1411-B smart meter, Chameleon IHD6
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Thank you but this answer is just gibberish. You say that meters have to generate random times etc - why? It doesn`t make any sense. I am contracted to be charged at the night rate until 7.00 - noting ambiguous or random about that. I am being overcharged full stop.. The fact is I AM being charged at the daily rate - I have sat and watched the rate change at exactly 7.00, and the heater switch off at 7.06. These figures tally up exactly with our monthly bills.

Firedog
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Is your smart meter transmitting half-hourly readings? If so, you should be able to see the usage figures on your account’s web pages. This is what mine look like, when the off-peak period is 00:00-07:00 like yours: 
  

The heaters have reached full capacity by about 04:45, but their supply doesn’t switch off until 07:00. Are you seeing obvious heating consumption outside of the prescribed hours?

 

Noel | I have no official status; I'm just a volunteer who comes here to help other customers. My gear: Aclara SGM 1416-B Electricity-only E7 meter; Chameleon IHD3-PPMID-AAA
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Hi Firedog

Thanks for this but being half-hourly it is not accurate enough. We are talking about 6 minutes which does not sound much but if I had all three heaters on this would add up to an overcharge of £7.50 per month. In any case we should get what we are supposed to i.e 12-7 - approximately is not acceptable in this day and age.

By the way could you make any sense of Tim s (Ovo) reply above? I  understood all the individual words but they seemed to be randomly assembled!

Blastoise186
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TL;DR Version:

Your meter won’t flip Economy 7 on and off at precisely the advertised times. But whenever it flips, both the off-peak tariff rate AND storage heaters will flip on/off at the same time - you will ALWAYS get the full seven hours either way.

This has ALWAYS been the case ever since Economy 7 first existed. Regardless of meter type (Smart, Traditional with local timeswitch, or RTS Meter), the same thing will always happen.

If it didn’t do this, the National Grid would implode when tens of thousands of storage heaters suddenly fire up and shut down all at once across the UK,

Securing energy by zapping security bugs... For that is The Blastoise Way!
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The whole point is the rate and the heaters DON`T flip at the same time, if they diid I wouldn`t be compaining!

Blastoise186
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You need to check the meter itself for this, not the IHD

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Jeffus
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Hi @dmacbrew i don't have any comments to make on how it works, as i don't actually know.

Do you mind me asking a question about storage heaters generally? I don't have storage heaters or Economy 7.

I see the time period is 7 hours. Do you know how long it normally takes to fully  charge your heaters? Is it more or less than 7 hours?

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Blasoise

If you go back to my original post the engineer was supposed to change the meter but he said there was nothing wrong with it. So now we have two expert authorities (Ovo & their contractor) with diametrically opposed views - this is no help to me. Surely it`s down to Ovo to sort it?

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Jeffus

I don`t know for sure as I can`t afford to pay for the whole period so get up in the missle of the night to switch it on. I would guess 5 hours.

Blastoise186
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As far as I can tell from the thread, it sounds like everything is working as intended.

That’s all I know

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Jeffus
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Jeffus

I don`t know for sure as I can`t afford to pay for the whole period so get up in the missle of the night to switch it on. I would guess 5 hours.

Thanks

I assume there are no timers on the storage heaters to limit when they charge then?

 

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Jeffus

Unfortunately not!

BPLightlog
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Hi @dmacbrew , just looking through this thread and I don’t quite understand. If as you say, there are no timers on the storage heaters, they sound like the new style fed from a separate off peak circuit from your meter. This means that they only operate to charge up when that feed is active. 
Reading elsewhere, there are often separate circuits which are from your peak feed which operate the fan to circulate the stored heat and allow a daytime boost when needed. 
If the meter switches as you indicate then the off peak feed is also off and so anything taken afterwards (or before) is using peak tariff. 
I don’t know enough about the new storage heaters but it might suggest there is a boost active or other system asking for more power. Sorry if this is of no use but just explaining a few thoughts as surely the ‘demand’ for power after the off peak - peak switch is elsewhere in the system. 

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Hi BPLightlog

My heaters don`t have the boost system you mentioned - although they are only a few years ols they are exactlty the same model that was in when I came here around 20 years ago.

So, as you say ” If the meter switches as you indicate then the off peak feed is also off and so anything taken afterwards (or before) is using peak tariff. “ - so the heaters go onto the peak rate for 6 minutes until they switch off. I don```t understand how some people on here aren``t able to take that in.

Jeffus
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Hi BPLightlog

My heaters don`t have the boost system you mentioned - although they are only a few years ols they are exactlty the same model that was in when I came here around 20 years ago.

So, as you say ” If the meter switches as you indicate then the off peak feed is also off and so anything taken afterwards (or before) is using peak tariff. “ - so the heaters go onto the peak rate for 6 minutes until they switch off. I don```t understand how some people on here aren``t able to take that in.

Hi @dmacbrew Do you know if you have a 5 terminal E7 Smart Meter? I assume you have as you have no timers or boost on your storage heaters. 

If you are not sure you could post a photo of the smart meter (not the In Home Display)? 

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Don`t have casual access to meter - see my second post

Jeffus
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Don`t have casual access to meter - see my second post

OK. 

Firedog
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Thanks for this but being half-hourly it is not accurate enough.  

I’ll ask again: Are you seeing obvious heating consumption outside of the prescribed hours? A storage heater like mine is rated at 3.5kW, so each half-hour it’s consuming power records 1.75kWh on the usage chart. If it was still using power for six minutes after 07:00, this would clearly show as an 0.9kWh spike on top of whatever else was going on then, for example boiling the kettle, making toast or (in my case) using a 9kW electric shower. You couldn’t miss it, especially if you have something like 10kW of storage heaters.  

  

By the way could you make any sense of Tim s (Ovo) reply above? 

Yes; Blastoise explained it, too. Smart meter timers are pretty accurate, so there has to be some way of preventing every storage heater in the country from switching on at precisely the same moment to prevent a catastrophic surge in demand for power from the national grid. By delaying each meter’s start of the off-peak period by just a random few minutes, this potential catastrophe is averted. Your consumption will still be recorded at the right rate, as you should be able to see online. 

Noel | I have no official status; I'm just a volunteer who comes here to help other customers. My gear: Aclara SGM 1416-B Electricity-only E7 meter; Chameleon IHD3-PPMID-AAA
BPLightlog
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Just wondering @dmacbrew if you might be able to see what type of IHD you have? 
They're usually marked somewhere .. or if you can post a photo, it might be identifiable 

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Thanks for this but being half-hourly it is not accurate enough.  

I’ll ask again: Are you seeing obvious heating consumption outside of the prescribed hours? A storage heater like mine is rated at 3.5kW, so each half-hour it’s consuming power records 1.75kWh on the usage chart. If it was still using power for six minutes after 07:00, this would clearly show as an 0.9kWh spike on top of whatever else was going on then, for example boiling the kettle, making toast or (in my case) using a 9kW electric shower. You couldn’t miss it, especially if you have something like 10kW of storage heaters.  

  And I`ll tell you agin. You seen to have a fixation with half-hourly consumption. Why, when I have an accurate minute by minute record? Or are you saying that the IHD is giving a false reading? This is an entirely different possibility which no-one has suggested so far.

 

 

By the way could you make any sense of Tim s (Ovo) reply above? 

Yes; Blastoise explained it, too. Smart meter timers are pretty accurate, so there has to be some way of preventing every storage heater in the country from switching on at precisely the same moment to prevent a catastrophic surge in demand for power from the national grid. By delaying each meter’s start of the off-peak period by just a random few minutes, this potential catastrophe is averted. Your consumption will still be recorded at the right rate, as you should be able to see online. 

Of course I understand that  but no reason was given for the discrepancy between the changeover time and the current cut-off time.

M.isterW
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I think the question that hasn't been asked is, do you know and can you prove that you're being charged the higher rate for the period from 7am to 7:06am? Your IHD isn't a reliable measure of your charges. I know this because I'm on a variable tariff and the charges on my IHD don't match what I actually pay.

 

As @Blastoise186 and @Tim_OVO have pointed out, if you have a 5 terminal meter that is controlling the heaters your rate will change at the same time as the timer. Unless you can show that this isn't happening (again, your IHD isn't sufficient evidence) there's not much anyone can do.

 

1992 4 bed detached house. Solar PV + battery, Zappi EV charger, Mitsubishi Ecodan ASHP and i-life2 fan assisted radiators.... No gas 😊
Firedog
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Are you seeing obvious heating consumption outside of the prescribed hours?   

... I have an accurate minute by minute record? Or are you saying that the IHD is giving a false reading? This is an entirely different possibility which no-one has suggested so far.

 

Please don’t think I don’t believe what you’re saying. An IHD will only ever be a guide, but even so, it should be accurate. Accurate, that is, in that it will show you its interpretation of the data it receives from the meter, perhaps every 10 seconds or so.  What you’re billed for on the other hand depends solely on the register readings transmitted to OVO each night. 

Without knowing how your heaters are wired up, we can’t really say whether you have reason to be concerned or not. Many installations are arranged so that power to storage heaters is all recorded on the off-peak register and delivered by a dedicated circuit that switches on and off automatically at the start and end of the off-peak period.

@BPLightlog asked if you could post a photo of your IHD - this would be a good start.

Are you able to see the register readings on your IHD? I can on mine:
  

  
If you can, it should be fairly simple to check whether you’re being cheated or not.

  • Make sure you know which register is for peak and which for off-peak. R01 is my off-peak register.
    If you’re not sure, watch to see which reading rises when you turn on the kettle in the middle of the day. That’s the peak register.
  • Make sure the heaters are charging at 07:00, consuming several kW. Leave other power-hungry equipment (e.g. kettle, toaster, immersion heater, electric shower, tumble dryer) turned off for the time being to avoid confusion.
  • Make a note of the readings.
  • At 07:15, note them again.

If the off-peak reading increased, everything is as it should be. If it stayed the same, you are indeed being charged for heating at the higher rate.

 

Noel | I have no official status; I'm just a volunteer who comes here to help other customers. My gear: Aclara SGM 1416-B Electricity-only E7 meter; Chameleon IHD3-PPMID-AAA

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