Complex meter: Refused Economy 7?

I have a new booking now. Replacing the complex 2 MPAN setup with a single smart meter.

I was promised that one of the two MPANs will be permanently removed from national database and one of my two accounts will be closed.

Please keep us posted with how you get on ​@EdinburghFan, it could really help other community members in a similar situation.
 

https://www.ovoenergy.com/guides/energy-guides/mpas

https://www.ovoenergy.com/help/article/electric-heating/one-meter-two-rates
 

I am not with OVO but came across this forum while searching for comfort plus control forums.

I have just joined the Ovo Energy Forum and hopefully I am posting my information in the correct place to get some feedback. If I should be creating a new post I am sure someone will advise me accordingly.

There is a lot of information in the threads for this post and I have read most of them with a high degree of interest. 

I keep reading about 2 meters and 2 MPANS but my system is 3 meters and 2 MPANS.

This is a Scottish Power installed CPC system when the house was built in 1995. I moved into this property in 2000 and spent 22 years with Scottish Power at horrendous rates as it was impossible to find an alternative energy provider. However in June 2022 EDF took over my supply and the bills were greatly reduced. However I find myself in the position of many others with the RTS switch off.

I have had a visit from an EDF contracted engineer to install a smart meter but that went nowhere fast as he didn’t understand the existing system and could not install a smart meter that would provide the same service.

I basically have a 3 phase supply with one meter allocated for the usual domestic circuits and this is on one MPAN.

The other MPAN has 2 meters one off peak and one 24hr economy supply for hot water and space heaters.

From what I have read in this thread it appears that the system I have will longer be available in that there can’t be a 24hr economy supply. A scary thought as I use more on the 24hr supply than the off peak.

Having recently spent approximately £12,000 installing Dimplex Quantum storage heaters and having rewiring carried out to supply the second feed for operation of these storage heaters it looks like I might have been better going in a different direction.

On the 1st of July EDF stopped my Standard Variable Heating Tariff and moved all 3 meters onto a Standard Variable Tariff, they also added in another daily standard charge. Using the figures from last years consumption my bill will increase by £1399 per annum. The annual consumption averages 19,500 Kwh and I thought being green and trying to save the planet was worth paying a little more than being on a gas powered heating system. I am waiting for EDF to come back to me regarding new meter/meters installation but I don’t hold out much hope.

I have tried other suppliers and received quotes at the end of June from Eon next and Scottish power but when I tried to change to either of them they informed me that they are not taking on new customers with complex meters.

I think I am starting to ramble and losing the plot. Bear with me for a few more lines.

I have heard about 3 phase smart meters being available does anyone know if this is an answer to the problem?

Hopefully I have posted in the correct place if not I can always try a new post. I can also (if any of the experts are interested) post pictures of the set up with my meters.

You have come to the right place ! There are several knowledgeable people who can advise you, sorry to say I’m not one of them… Please do post photos of your setup and someone will be along soon.

Thank you Juliamc for such a prompt response, I have become accustomed to long waits when on this subject to Energy Suppliers.

I am attaching photographs of the installation in my property.

Just want to keep you in the loop. I have seen this, but I’m diving tomorrow and need to prep for that tonight.

I’ll come back to this tomorrow evening! Please bear with me

Ok, I’m back. Sorry for the delay but I was tired last night after I got back (diving is fun but it uses a LOT of your energy when you go to 20m at 9 Celsius!). But on the plus side, I may have just qualified as a BSAC Ocean Diver (pending verifications and discussions) so at least I have an excuse! :D

In theory, OVO is capable of doing this work, but it may need to be via their contractor SMS (not quite as likely if it’s not a CT Meter setup which this one clearly isn’t).

The snag is whether OVO is currently taking on customers with setups like this one. To save you the trouble of waiting in the queues to phone Support and get dropped off another cliff, I will make arrangements to do some digging for you. Please bear with me as I’ll fling this at the Forum Moderators - they likely know exactly who to ask.

We’ll keep you posted! Please monitor this thread as there may be more updates or questions from us as we figure this out.

Morning ​@Koolqat and welcome to the OVO Forum 😁.

I can see some of our Forum members are already on the case with helping you here, and I can see that you have quite a complex set up. I’m going to speak to some colleagues and see if I can gather any further information for you. In the meantime, I’ve been checking over EDF’s website and can see they have this info: https://www.edfenergy.com/rts-shutdown-2025.

I’ll be back in touch as soon as possible with further info for you.

Hi ​@Koolqat 

My info here won’t give you an answer but might help overall.

Your system uses a 3 phase input as you’ve mentioned and each phase feeds through its own single phase meter for power measurement.

Although I can’t see all the cabling tracks, given the multiple distribution boards/consumer units, each single phase looks like it feeds those separate sets of circuits for your different supplies.

While a 3 phase meter ‘should’ be capable of being fitted, the rest of the circuit wiring might need some adjustment for your internal system. You might need to get a local electrician to help once a new meter is installed.

You are correct that nothing will fully match any 24 hr feed but if OVO are able to make sense and fit a meter, there are tariffs with different rates available which might help your situation.

Ben will have more info available once he’s got his replies but given your setup, it might need a few extra steps to get everything in place.

Hi Blastoise186

Thank you for chasing this along. I did try for a quote on the OVO website but they are not taking on complex systems just now although they said that they hope to be able to sometime in 2025.

Hi Ben_OVO

Thank for your help and the link to EDF RTS switch off.

I had visited this link before but your reply prompted me to read it again.

Their statement “and we’ve made sure there’s a suitable meter available for every type of set up” has them scratching their heads when it comes to mine. What they print and what you hear when speaking to them do not match up.

They have informed me that they are looking into it so I wait with baited breath.

Hi BPLightlog

Thank you also for looking at this. You are correct about each single phase feed to the distribution boards.

I definitely think that there will be a requirement for some wiring alterations unless a suitable meter can be found. The main concern here is the 24hr economy supply which is the control circuit for all heating. If that has to be moved to the standard domestic tariff its going to be a huge increase in my annual bill. But if that is the only way to maintain the control side I am going to have to suck it up.

Hi again ​@Koolqat and thanks for your help here ​@BPLightlog, much appreciated as always!

​@Koolqat I’ve double checked behind the scenes and can confirm that we’re not taking on new customers with complex metering setups at the moment, however this may change soon! I’ve also had one of our engineers cast their eyes over your photos, and they’ve advised that, if you were our customer, we’d most likely be able to get it changed over successfully. I appreciate that this doesn’t help too much, as you’re not able to sign up to OVO at the moment but, hopefully, EDF should be able to get this sorted for you soon.

I don’t know the ins and outs of EDF’s RTS process at the moment, but they’re one of the biggest UK energy suppliers, so hopefully they should have some engineers that’ll be able to get your supply changed over. Let us know how it goes and please do feel free to fire any more questions our way.

Thanks again Ben_OVO, that information sounds a little more promising. Hopefully the next time that EDF send an engineer he will have been appraised of the system he will be attending to.

It wasn’t for the lack of information that I have provided to them prior to the last visit. They have the same photographs that I posted so if they give them to their engineers they might have a chance.

I will still monitor OVO to see if they start taking on new customers with systems like mine and will probably make the switch.

Are these night storage heaters? There are different types, with older ones often having two feeds, one for charging them with offpeak electricity, the other for control. Many modern ones have a single feed, but internal time switches ensure that they are only charged during offpeak periods. In both cases, almost all of the energy they use can be managed by a smart meter to be billed at offpeak rates. It sounds as if a meter like one or other of the Aclara SGM 1430-B variants will be able to manage this (other brands are available!). What you lose is the 24-hour lower-cost heating supply, so you’d pay full whack for any other heaters running out of offpeak hours. 

Sadly, EDF seem to have decided against continuing complex tariffs like Economy 10 which would suit customers in that situation, giving 10 hours offpeak for charging up storage heaters and heating water. It’s also convenient with daytime offpeak hours where power-hungry equipment can be used at lower rates. OVO are also a bit conflicted about taking on new complex-metering customers, but they can possibly be persuaded.

EDF are now apparently only be offering Economy 7 for customers with storage heating, so no daytime cheap power They may reconsider, or face losing a lot of customers who they regard as awkward. 

Hi Firedog thank you for your contribution.

I have 5 storage heaters (Dimplex Quantum) which were installed as replacements for old storage heaters in January 2022. These are charged overnight with off peak energy. These are very efficient storage heaters only drawing what they need. They are very well insulated and do not leak any heat. These heaters  require a second power source (24hr) to run the fan that distributes the heat for when programmed. They can be controlled from a Dimplex hub via smart phone controlling zone temperatures or individual spaces.

I also have 6 panel heaters which have 24hr supply and like the storage heaters can be programmed and controlled from a smart phone.

Water heating is off peak but it can also be boosted if required from the 24hr supply.

Having been on the same type of tariff for over 25 years it has come as a bit of a shock that these tariffs are becoming obsolete. All the more for the energy suppliers I suppose.

Using over 19,000 units a year even with the old tariff did not come cheap but it is an excellent heating system.

I do have a gas meter and was considering changing to a wet system with a gas boiler but we really don’t want to go through the upheaval of a major change. It is looking more likely that some rewiring is going have to be the way to go.

This is what I was referring to. On a two-rate tariff, the peak price is quite a bit higher than the single-rate price. Using panel heaters injudiciously could be very expensive indeed. Your Quantums are the ones to rely on, using panel heaters only for an extra comfort boost, during offpeak hours only whenever possible.

Your water heater will work in exactly the same way as before. Using its boost function out of offpeak hours is to be avoided, but it shouldn’t often be necessary.   

If the consumer unit(s) are anywhere near the meter, it may be possible for the meter engineer to do what’s necessary to connect the storage heaters and immersion heater up as required. It will often just be a question of shuffling stuff around in the CU, but every installation is unique, so we can’t be certain. If the engineer can’t finish that part of the job off, it would probably take only a brief visit by your friendly neighbourhood electrician to do the necessary. 

I wonder if ​@Lukepeniket_OVO can take a look into this for you ​@Koolqat & offer some helpful avice here. 
 

Have you considered air to air heating using an ASHP?

Hugely popular in Shetland for replacing storage heaters with a more efficient controllable system, even folk with Quantums are removing them for air to air heating. 

No government assistance, as they can also work to cool the properties through summer, but VAT is 0%, and much cheaper/easier to install than an air to water ASHP. Also way simpler than air to water ASHP.

Can give you more info if required, installed our system August last year.

There are rumours that this may change according to several recent articles, e.g. UK homeowners could get £7,500 grant for air con heat pumps | The Standard. This would perhaps be well worth waiting for ...

Thanks ​@Firedog , interesting, can't see them offering the full £7.5k as the systems are much cheaper than air to water installs.

Hi Infiltrator

Thanks for your contributions. I have now done a lot of research (and still researching) on air to air heat pumps.

I’m in a large house and most of what I read are saying positive things but recommend them for smaller properties or flats. If they are like AC systems which I am used to (lived in Middle East for 30 years) then I would need to install 11 units or install ducting which is not a feasible retrofit in this property.

Still waiting for a response from EDF on their proposed meter upgrade. I don’t think they are in much of a rush due to getting 3 meter readings and 2 standing charges now. Hopefully before the winter arrives there will be some positive news.

You possibly don't need the heating units in every room, our system has one unit in the hallway upstairs covering 2 bedrooms and a bathroom, not a huge house, the area covered by the single upstairs 2kw unit is about 36m2.

Our system is Panasonic, worth looking at some of their solutions, they're starting to offer different options other than just the traditional Aircon type units.

I'm in a FB group for THTC homeowners, it's trying to help homeowners understand the RTS switch off given the general lack of information that was originally available, it's generally Scottish rural properties with RTS, storage heaters and 3 meter 2 mpan setups, feedback from EDF customers isn't good. They're taking a hard line with the solutions being offered and the recent move to kick customers off the standard variable tariff and add a second standing charge has resulted in a few customers using their local MPs to raise complaints directly with EDF. Apparently 3 months compensation is being offered to cover the 2nd standing charge and higher tariff costs. EDFs communication has been abysmal, erratic and inconsistent.

The FB group I mentioned isn't a technical group, it's for general advice, but it's useful for sharing experiences and information across all suppliers and areas, for the more complex technical questions I'll refer group members to the very helpful and knowledgeable volunteers on this group.

Thanks again infiltrator for the information.

I will continue looking at the air to air units but I don’t think it is feasible for me. My upstairs is 120m2 and downstairs a good deal larger.

However I am very interested in the information you passed on about others experiences with EDF.

I will definitely raise the issue with my local MPs to make them aware of what is going on with EDF.

I had a quick look for the FB group and all I could find was THTC Customers, is this the group to which you were referring?

Having managed to glean quite a lot of useful information from the OVO forum I feel more knowledgeable going forward. I am not going to throw in the towel. 

Yes that's the group. 

Personally I think raising the issue with your MP won't make any difference, EDF, albeit dragging their heels with Scottish RTS customers and maybe not delivering the best customer support experience, they do appear to be following the licence conditions and Ofgem proposed licence amendments.