Time of Use (TOU) tariffs and how to compare your prices with other suppliers - discussion

As with all things related to comparisons,  apples are not all equal and comparing an apple with another apple requires a ton of relevant base facts beforehand.  Sadly indeed as the tariffs do indeed get smarter, so too does the act of comparison get harder, unless we can get all the usage data in a machine readable format (which i think we can as this could be required under a GDPR SAR) , but would also need a multivendor comparison tool (website) and all the data to be consistent and consistently structured between one another . Whilst this may seem tricky now, i work in the travel business and have seen airlines and ferry companies manage this so it is not beyond the realms of the future. That way, that little ofgem box can actually compare fairly  it just needs agreement and management.

Interesting @Jequinlan 

I had to look this up.

GDPR SAR

A Subject Access Request (SAR) is the Right of Access allowing an individual to obtain records to their personal information, held by an organisation.

But we couldn't be each submitting individual requests and then waiting up to a month to get them and pass them on. Presumably it would be more a data portability agreement. Perhaps it would be an industry requirement that data be available to comparison sites if and when an individual authorised access?

If we are on time based charging, it will be gigabytes of data!

If we are on time based charging and our smart devices each choose the cheapest time to operate, those times would change depending on price and availability, so they wouldn't be comparable between providers that use mostly solar, mostly wind, mostly gas… or if my provider uses wind but I've solar panels, or if I've a battery wall or an EV. 

It sure makes your brain hurt. 

Agree its not ideal, but yes at least there is a way of getting it. As indeed i was hinting there should be industry standardisation in this are, but sadly not yet. Data portability is indeed a valid point however, sadly the actual implications of what this actually means has not yes been settled in case law. We will get there though.

I think this is becoming a useful discussion.

There’s nothing preventing us from devising a useful alternative to the current Tariff Comparison Box which would work for consumers on a Time Of Use tariff and then submitting it to BEIS or Ofgem.

Here on the Forum we have the breadth of skills to achieve this. Moreover we have a far greater proportion of consumers with experience of timed/controlled Grid import/export than either BEIS or Ofgem have amongst their staff! That puts us in a pre-eminent position to consider the variables.

Even if we can’t actually write the comparison algorithm, we could at least establish the rule-set on which it must be built.

That’s got to be a lot better than waiting for Sir Humphrey Appleby to put together an inter-departmental Committee of Inquiry which then gets its suggestions put out to Public Consultation… the results of which then get strangled by a Parliamentary sub-committee who don’t understand what the issue is in the first place

So let me kick this off with a few pointers:

1: Let’s not assume that Comparison Websites are going to survive as we currently know them.

2: We need Ofgem to impose a date by which all Energy Suppliers must offer at least one Time Of Use tariff. This can be in addition to the maximum 3 (or is it 4?) which they may offer at present.

3: The contents of the Tariff Comparison Box must still be understandable by those who don’t have much idea of the difference between a Fixed-term Tariff and a Variable Tariff. (Remember that we already have Variable Tariffs; these are automatically applied to those who don’t switch at the end of their Fixed-Contract).

4: There are two concepts which form the basis of a Time Of Use tariff:

1. A set of preferences which a consumer sets up as their daily norm.
2. A variation on that preference-set invoked because of a one-off Notification. This might be “Cost per kWh lowered to 5p between 10:30 - 15:00 tomorrow. Do you wish to alter preferences for tomorrow? Y/N”

There. That should be enough to get us going.

I’m just going to tag a few more here. They may not respond immediately, but because of other stuff they’ve posted here, they’d probably like to know this Topic exists.

@ITGeek123  @D10hul@sylm_2000 and @PeterR1947 

@BarryE  who raised a legitimate issue here about the Tariff Comparison Box just a month ago.

@JimTraynor@SteveRB  and @Rishi the Fox who got stuck into the maths behind the V2G export credits on this topic a year ago. And @Hari_OVO - although he’s only concerned with the export credit payments, which operate outside of the Billing System.

Is there anyone obvious I’ve missed out @Tim_OVO ?

Thanks @Transparent i do think if we can get some lega on this and especially if anyone from OVO has contacts in other suppliers to see if they have any plans in this area too it is a great initiative and perhaps OVO can take the lead (and us, the Community can help!) I am happy to create the common data structure design (as that’s my job as a data architect) if and when we understand what variables and data need to go into the equation! 

Yes, @Jequinlan - I imagined that you might be able to collate thoughts into a data structure.

I don’t think OVO themselves will get involved in this Discussion Topic. Whilst I’m sure they have staff whose job it is to analyse what other Energy Suppliers are up to, they’re hardly going to divulge anything on an Open Forum. Nor are they going to be openly critical of the guidelines which their regulator, Ofgem, impose upon them!

I think we’re better discussing this amongst ourselves. They key points are:

1. We are reasonably astute about energy matters, and yet we still struggle to understand what the Tariff Comparison Box is trying to tell us!
2. We have experience of Devices controlled by the Kaluza Platform, and hence are aware of how very difficult it is to include these variable Imports/Exports within any sort of Comparison.

As we are representative of the very sort of customers who Ofgem are trying to “inform” via the Tariff Comparison Box we actually hold quite a strong position. We are, after all, trying to add constructive input to a discussion which Ofgem will have to resolve very soon.

Something else I’ve just thought of.

I suspect all us active Forum Members are on Fixed Contracts. I’ve never seen an OVO invoice for their Variable Tariff, so I have no idea if the cost is calculated daily or monthly, nor whether the Tariff Comparison Box looks the same.

@Tim_OVOis it possible for you to obtain a “dummy” Variable Tariff invoice for us from the Billing Dept.?

For the moment let’s assume that we’re only considering a Variable Tariff customer with a Smart Meter. So OVO are receiving the usage data for each day.

Ok @Transparent let us assume simple case 1st, what we need to understand 1st is what data influences cost:

Essentially I believe this to be a combination of:

Variable amounts:

Amount of flow of electricity and Gas (in or out for elec) 

Method of power generated (where its applicable)

Date and Time it occurs (therefore rate that applies)

Tarrif (plan) which applies

Type of meter (as I guess E7 and E10 may influence this calculation further due to having to have 2 meter reading values i believe)

Plus

Fixed "costs":

Such as daily standing charges

Termination fees

Discounts for any reasons such as DD or submitting meter reads.

Other bonuses (such as free polar membership) eqivalent values.

I am happy to (if they are happy to provide) use my own account as an example as I think there is a large amount of these variables that apply (if we cannot get a mock produced)

Out of interest, how do we get to influence ofgem?

The problem I see, and it has already happened to me, is that the more complex tariffs become, the harder it is for the data to be compared.

I’m on the Octopus Go tariff which gives me Elect at 5p per kWh between 00:30 and 04:30 every night but that immediately mean that I cannot do comparisons using uswitch or any of the other comparison sites as the tariff doesn’t appear on any of them so I have to revert to my trusty spreadsheet

@PeterR1947 this is exactly why @Transparent and I have been discussing what data we technically need for a comparison! We havd the problem, and now need to agree the components that feed into a visble solution