Storage Heater not working after Smart Meter installed

Hi all,
Apologies a bit late to the feed but I have the same issue as OP (except I gave in to OVOs letters and had my Smart Meter installed in 2022).
I’m on an Economy 7 tariff and some of my storage heaters are wired up to off-peak only supply. I used to hear a clunk in the flat each night and morning when the supply changed over but that doesn’t happen any more. I believe that was linked to a timer in our meter cupboard downstairs sending the signal to our fuse box to switch on/off the off-peak supply.
The winter of 2022 I discover the storage heaters aren’t working and they send an engineer out but they say nothing wrong with the meter and the Support team say my meter is configured correctly and won’t sent the ECAUL command to update the ALCS config as they said there’s nothing wrong and it’s my issue… they just keep fobbing me off. My neighbour has also had a smart meter installed and their storage heaters now don’t work either (though they aren’t that bothered as they use a portable heater around the flat).
Pictures of my old and new meter attached.
I’m not really sure what to do from here :( any help would be much appreciated!
 

Hi ​@chezza112 ,

Physically… Everything appears OK. I’d say see what happens if you follow https://ovoenergy.com/feedback - one of the options there will probably solve this.

Hey ​@chezza112 

How frustrating for you. I’m sorry to hear this. 

 

I think Blastoise’ suggestion might be the best option in this scenario. If it all looks okay from our end I wonder if there’s something else going on? If you do get an engineer to check please keep the report. If it says OVO are to blame for the fault then our team can look into re-imbursing the cost of the engineer.

This topic may have some helpful advice:

 

• Who owns what? - Your guide on cut outs, meters, fuses and who's responsible Tutorial

The two thin cables from the bottom of the meter lead to terminal blocks and then to … where? It’s unusual to see two cables, so I assume there are two external contactors somewhere below. One of these might switch power to the storage heaters and the other to the immersion heater, or some other combination of heaters. In any case, it’s these contactors that we can’t see that might have given the ‘clunk’ you used to hear, so either they’ve stopped working or they’re just not connected. This is the sort of thing you’re looking for:
  

Any sign of anything like this below what we can see in your picture?

If you find something like this, you’ll probably need to get your electrician in to find out why they’re not working, if that is indeed the problem.

Just to add to what I posted earlier, I fell over this photo of a really gay meter box just now. It shows exactly what I was referring to:
  

The two pink cables presumably supply two consumer units, the left-hand one for the constant circuit, the right-hand one for the switched (heating) circuit.

Not sure if this is helpful.  But, I thought earlier it was mentioned that landis gyr E470 SMETS2 requires to be paired with an L470 5451 for ALCS! I cannot see this on the photo above. 

No, I don’t think so. There may have been problems recorded with the close-coupled contactor shown in your photo, which may explain why you may see third-party contactors like the Proteus in my photo used instead. Or perhaps L+G weren’t always able to supply 5451s. It doesn’t matter much, so long as it works. 

Some electricians are wary of switchgear inside the housing of sensitive electronic equipment and always prefer to use external contactors to switch ‘heavy’ loads. An Economy 7 switched circuit could easily be suddenly seeing draws of 15-20kW.

Hi guys. Can anyone help me as I’m losing the will to live. I switched providers in August. In October, I switched in my storage heaters and they didn’t come on. I have had (3) engineers attend, including 1 who changed the meter, but the problem still persists. I’ve also had private electricians who advised that the issue is the meter. Don’t seem to be getting much help; it’s getting colder. The experiences I’ve read in this forum are very much similar to mine. What could be the issue? Some photos of my set up are attached . 

Hi ​@Phil278130 ,

You have an Aclara SGM1412-B by the looks of things. I need some more info from you:

• Who was your Supplier at the time of the initial installation of each Meter you’ve had recently
• Who is your Supplier now
• Please post more photos showing us what’s near the meter

I think I can diagnose this pretty rapidly, but I want to be sure.

​Hi @Blastoise186 

Was with EDF until this year August, switched to Scottish Power then back to EDF now as wasn’t getting any help with Scottish Power. EDF installed an aclara meter last year August (from the black one below). It was working fine. Scottish power came 2 weeks ago and replaced it with another Aclara. Storage heaters not working still. 

Ok, thanks. If you desire a second opinion, let me know and I can request one for you - we have access to a very talented Smart Meter Engineer if we need him.

Some monkey from Scottish Power has messed this entire install up by the looks of things. The Aclara SGM1412-B is designed to work with an External Contactor for E7/E10 purposes - the fifth-port at the front supplies only 2A for powering a relay - it does NOT do 100A that your Storage Heaters need. They should have either fitted said relay contactor OR installed an Aclara SGM1416-B instead, which has the fifth-terminal do full 100A.

And that’s my diagnosis so far. This will never work as things stand.

The easiest solution? Fit an actual Five-Terminal SMETS2 Smart Meter such as the Aclara SGM1416-B instead of the current Aclara SGM1412-B.

Typical Scottish Power...

Hi ​@Blastoise186 . You’re right. There’s a contactor in my flat’s consumer unit (I’m on the second floor, all residents meters are on the ground floor cupboard). Attached is the photo. 
Does this change your diagnosis?

EDF are sending another engineer (again) within 3 hours. I might need the services of your engineer in case they don’t sort it out. 

No worries. Just so you know, as a Forum Volunteer I’m only allowed to provide advice here on the Forum - we’re not allowed to touch your account/setup or visit you in person (sorry!). As good as our Engineer friend is, the same rules apply to him as well for complicated reasons. If you got lucky and had him assigned to handle a job you booked though, I can 100% vouch for how good he is! Unlike me, he does work for OVO though. :)

The other snag is that no-one from OVO can touch your setup if you’re with another supplier due to Industry rules. Sorry to be a pain, but it’s kinda complicated.

But I can definitely ask him to take a look at this thread if needed and ask for him to reply here to offer his thoughts if/when he gets a chance. That much we can definitely do if we need it!

However… My diagnosis so far remains unchanged. That’s a 25A Installation Contactor, sure. But it’s not the type that I recognise as being the one known to be installed alongside a Smart Meter of this type - it’s common to see Proteus 100A ones paired with an Aclara SGM1412-B for example, but that Crabtree one looks like it was probably there anyway. I don’t believe a Smart Meter Engineer can install those Crabtree ones like the one you’ve got.

And besides, it’s also not equipped with a 2A Relay either. :)

If the correct type was installed, you’d see one of these puppies near the Meter: https://proteusswitchgear.com/products/100-a-heating-contactor-single-phase/

Thank you so much for your response. I appreciate it. It’s understandable why your you, your friend and OVO won’t touch my set up. 
Yes, the Crabtree contactor has always been there. 
Just a question though, but forgive me, I’m not technical like you— for my neighbours with similar meter as mine, I don’t see any external contactor (Proteus) next to their meters. Can the proteus and my Crabtree contactor co-exist?

Secondly, I’m guessing the very initial suggestion of ALCS doesn’t apply in this instance?

No engineer turned up btw. I just rang them and was told someone with come tomorrow; the job was wrongly booked. 

I’m no electrician myself, but I learn a few tricks here and there. :)

Naturally though, given that I’m not a qualified electrician, you can rest assured I won’t be tinkering with any wires anytime soon.

From what I’ve read, it looks like they can co-exist fairly peacefully since Amps are pulled rather than pushed. As for ALCS and using ECAUL to reconfigure it, that can help if the issue is config related (and almost always does in those cases!), but I don’t believe that this issue is config - it appears to be physical wiring related instead so I’m afraid ECAUL/ALCS is unlikely to help. 2A is enough to run tons of LED bulbs easily, but definitely not enough to run any heaters - and I suspect the setup as it stands is currently only supplying 2A to the circuit your storage heaters run on, so it’s basically doing nothing because it is intended to trigger those Proteus relay units only - it is those heating contactor units that then do the heavy lifting.

I also think your previous meter (as in, the black one) powered the Off-Peak circuit directly based on the photos you’ve posted - and I wouldn’t be surprised if the old meter was powering the Off-Peak circuit directly. If I were to make a guess, I’d say someone just jammed that cable straight into the 2A Relay terminal on both Smart Meters you’ve had without considering whether it would actually work or not.

I can prove that too - with SCIENCE! XD

I just pulled down some data related to the Ampy 5184C and what do ya know! It contains basically the same terminal arrangements as the Aclara SGM1416-B - for which I happen to have the full user manual. Might not be located in the exact same order or layout physically, but we can ignore that since an engineer would just wire it up appropriately anyway. Both the Ampy 5184C and the Aclara SGM1416-B feature a Five-Terminal setup with an additional 2A Relay so are essentially identical for that purpose. My diagnosis is that if the Aclara SGM1416-B had been fitted in the first place, matching up all the Meter Tails like-for-like with the existing setup would have been a piece of cake.

By that very same logic, it probably won’t surprise you to know that the Aclara SGM1412-B is a Four-Terminal meter - Aclara’s naming/numbering scheme is sheer genius after all - which features a 2A Relay only. This is the one you’ve currently got and is the reason why it’s supposed to be paired with a Proteus Heating Contactor* to enable Off-Peak stuff to run properly.

*Other brands of both Smart Meter and Heating Contactor are, of course, also available.

Ok, gonna be honest with ya here. You can also use an Aclara SGM1415-B instead of an SGM1416-B if you just need a Five-Terminal Meter and don’t require the 2A Relay as well, but let’s just keep it to the SGM1416-B for now just to make things easy!

Why am I not surprised…

This is one of those cases that perfectly demonstrates how powerful the OVO Forum is. While it’s true that OVO runs the place, provides the Moderators and pays the bills for it, everything else is community led and handled by volunteers. The fact we’re independent of the industry means we get to see things in a way that most people don’t. Kinda helps in some ways! :D

Mind you… It’s not like Scottish Power is a supplier I’d recommend anyway. Personally I tend to advise folks to avoid that supplier but that’s my opinion and your mileage may vary - although in your case it sounds like you’re probably not going to recommend them either. Mind you, I’ve encountered some of their sales reps in the streets before. Let’s just say it didn’t go well for most of them. But I did at least inspire one of them to quit their job and come do cool things with me instead. :)

Hey ​@Phil278130 

Has your supplier re-booked the appointment? 

I’m so glad Blastoise was able to help diagnose this issue. I hope this gets resolved for you ASAP.

Hi ​@Emmanuelle_OVO . I have just received a call from an engineer; said he’ll be here in 15 minutes. I’ll let you know how it goes. Thank you 

Well, the engineer tested the wires coming out of the meter and said they are “live” so it has nothing to do with the meter (SGM1412-B) and said my issue is in my flat and tried to insinuate that it’s the Crabtree contactor I posted earlier. Bear in mind the initial electrical I called in came and put in a new contactor (he thought it was the problem at that time). After that didn’t work, he then told me to phone my energy supplier (this has been going on since October )
I showed the engineer today the suggestion from@Blastoise186 . He said the meter model don’t matter, as long as there’s power coming out of it. I also noted that those neighbours with Aclara, have the 1416-B below. I don’t know what to do at this point.

Sigh… Just because there’s power coming out of the wire doesn’t mean there’s enough power coming down the wire. 2A is enough to run a lightbulb, not a heater - you want at least 13A for that.

On that SGM1416-B unit however, it’s clear to me that the wires in the front are running on a 2A Relay - the fifth terminal appears to be empty. But that doesn’t mean you’ve got the same setup in your flat as the others - they can change over time and lose the uniformity that may have existed at the initial installation.

At this point, might be worth getting a private electrician to do some checks. Make sure to keep the receipt/invoice too - you’ll be eligible to claim that back from your supplier if the electrician report indicates the Meter is the issue.