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Three Phase AMR for domestic property unable to send half hourly data

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Hi. I have solar PV, GSHP, two Powerwall batteries and an electric car. Also have 3 phase power as building used to be a small guest house. 

What I need is a smart meter to take advantage of time based tariffs. Currently with Octopus but they have failed. The first smart meter could get no signal due to location. After 12 months I then got an AMR meter with an external aerial. Perfect signal. Octopus now say it can’t provide half hourly readings and in fact I will have to send monthly ones manually. Is this an octopus issue, AMR issue or something else? Help! 

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Best answer by Blastoise186 21 April 2023, 10:04

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Blastoise186
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Hi @Edinburghadvisers ,

Just so everyone else knows, we’ve talked a little bit via PM before migrating the discussion to this thread.

So far, this seems to be a mostly bog standard 3-Phase setup if you ignore the Solar stuff. In theory, it could be supported by Smart Meters but 3-Phase SMETS2 is a bit rare at the moment. OVO is trialling them which means they’re being rolled out in very small numbers, but will slowly ramp up over time.

As for signal… You’re in Scotland so tbh an S2 Smart Meter might be better than AMR due to the Long-Range Radio based Arqiva WAN reaching areas that mobile phone signals can struggle with.

Your setup is supposed to work with domestic suppliers, but I get the feeling someone isn’t playing ball somewhere along the line.

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Thankyou. One of the final emails stated verbatim:

”The meter you have may have capabilities of retrieving half hourly data with a different set up and a company that has access to that data, but this is something we do not and cannot have access to. In order for this meter to be able to send half hourly readings to our platform we would need device IDs to add this, if it was possible to commission on to our platforms this would have been completed on install, these meters do not have the Device IDs needed”

it seems it is an Octopus software/portal issue?

Blastoise186
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Sounds like it.

I think OVO might be able to support your setup. Bear with me, as I’d need to ask the forum moderators about this first. I’d rather double check than disappoint you.

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Tim_OVO
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I’ve asked some very knowledgeable smart meter colleagues for their take on Octopus’ reply. 

 

@Edinburghadvisers you’ve got some nice new green tech badges - let’s get you an answer to top it off! 

Carbon neutral - we need a community to get there! My green tech: Aclara SGM 1411-B smart meter, Chameleon IHD6
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Badges are great! A smart meter would be even better! Trying to do my bit for Net Zero and sure there must be a solution. 

Tim_OVO
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I’ve heard back and have been advised:

 

Your current EDMI AMR meter cannot do the things a Smart meter, via the DCC, can do, and that means no smart tariffs etc.  Exactly why you got an AMR meter is unclear.

 

It looks like someone has tried to solve the half hourly (HH) data solution and set them up with something that cannot be supported by Octopus, but that’s a guess and Octopus are best placed to advise. It is worth noting that we can support it, not as a smart meter but OVO do have AMR agreements in place to remotely collect the data. 

 

It’s possible for us to check the smart meter signal (known as the wide area network, WAN) but if someone has tried and failed to connect, it’s unlikely...

Carbon neutral - we need a community to get there! My green tech: Aclara SGM 1411-B smart meter, Chameleon IHD6
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Thanks for responding. The signal is great according to the company that installed the AMR. It has an external aerial. The simple question is how do I get a meter or system in place that allows me to utilise smart tariffs? You mention OVO can collect the data but is it granular enough to do HH usage?

Blastoise186
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If you’re in Scotland though, it’s not the mobile phone signal that counts. It’s the Arqiva WAN Signal that’s in play instead. And that runs on a totally different setup.

Most AMR Meters can at least send in the readings based on whatever the reading is at the point of the heartbeat. But unfortunately, they don’t always support HH readings. And then there’s also the metering agents and their systems, which may not have support either.

AMR Meters are a bit of an old school thing, so they weren’t really designed with smart metering in mind.

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The WAN signal was weak. Newish house with concrete and foil backed insulation hence the problem. I asked for an aerial but that just moved the issue 50cm so no use to anyone. I can get an aerial outside easily (AMR proves it) but I believe the smart meters in the north do not allow one. Those in the south do. Perhaps OVO can install one from south of Manchester to help!

Jeffus
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Thanks for responding. The signal is great according to the company that installed the AMR. It has an external aerial. The simple question is how do I get a meter or system in place that allows me to utilise smart tariffs? You mention OVO can collect the data but is it granular enough to do HH usage?

The last info on availability i have seen is here regarding 3 phase smart meters in general, updated 17th March 2023. So perhaps leave it till  May and phone up and see if they will swap your setup in your area. 

Obviously that assumes you switch to OVO first with your current setup and manual readings, assuming they will do that. 

I suspect you are never going to get a smart tariff with your current meter, no supplier is ever going to invest in a parallel process. It is a dead end investigating anything with the AMR meter unfortunately

 

Tim_OVO
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I’ll send you a private message now so our lovely smart meter friends can check the WAN where you are @Edinburghadvisers - yes no smart tariffs with AMR meters so smart install is the only option. 

Carbon neutral - we need a community to get there! My green tech: Aclara SGM 1411-B smart meter, Chameleon IHD6
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All - the three phase smart meter saga continues. The situation I now have is a three phase AMR meter (photo attached) with an aerial (c7m) attached to the outside of my house. Apparently the signal is very good. Octopus (who fitted the meter) then stated it cant provide half hourly data. This was the whole point so very frustrating. So the question whether there is a three phase meter that does work with an aerial and does provide half hourly data? If not I will have to extend the tails and get a meter that does work in an outside cabinet. Any thoughts? Thanks

 

Blastoise186
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Ahh yes, I have seen this exact model before.

Unfortunately, while an AMR Meter can - in theory - record HH data, it’s unable to send it in a way that can integrate with other systems like a Smart Meter can. I think that’s the root cause of the issue here. AFAIK there’s also no Smart Meter aerial other than the T3 with a long enough cable either…

Add to that the lack of Three-Phase Engineers (OVO has access to a few, but hardly anyone else does) and it’s a perfect storm I’m afraid.

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So logically,  if there isn't a three phase meter that works with an aerial the only solution is to move the meter to a location (outside) that doesn’t need an aerial for signal?

 

Blastoise186
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An SKU2 Comms Hub with a T3 Aerial can be used on any SMETS2 Three-Phase Smart Meter to make that work. It’s just a case of getting hold of one which is a nightmare.

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Emmanuelle_OVO
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Hey @Edinburghadvisers,

 

Blastoise is right, it’s a difficult process to install a T3 aerial, and it’s down to the DCC ultimately. 

 

We’ve trailed T3 aerials but the process requires us to try and get a T2 aerial to attempt connectivity first, and failing that, to raise an incident with the DCC so they can investigate. They would then recommend if a T3 will resolve the issue or not.

 

But we’d need to understand why the site could not connect without T3 and if a T3 is needed, which only the DCC can confirm. 

 

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Thanks. Can anyone share a photo of a T2 and T3 aerial? I have an aerial connected but. No idea what I have apart from it is black and about 30cm long

Blastoise186
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I don’t have a photo handy, but I can get you the dimensions. Bear with me real quick!

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Blastoise186
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Here we go! Credit: https://www.smartme.co.uk/smets-2.html

 

Aerial Type % Installs Radio Use Manufacturer Dimensions (mm) On which Hubs
T1
Low Gain		 6% Cellular Panorama 165 x 32 x 20 Toshiba SKU2
(and SKU3 if poor signal)
T1
Low Gain		 WNC 128 x 25 x 17
T2
High Gain		 4% Panorama 372 x 33 x 20
T2
High Gain		 WNC 320 x 41 x 17
T3
High Gain		 0.5% Panorama 695 x 25 x 25 Toshiba SKU2/3
T3
High Gain		 Oriel 580 x 100 x 40
M1
Low Gain		 0.25% Mesh TBA TBA Toshiba SKU3
M2
High Gain		 0.25% TBA TBA
No aerial 89%      
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This suggests that you can only get the T3 aerial in central and south? If that is true the only Solution for Edinburgh is to get the meter outside? What I don’t understand is why the AMR meter has an aerial but not a normal one that actually works with half hourly data. Have I misunderstood?

Blastoise186
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Ah yeah. Gotcha.

The SKU1, SKU2 and SKU3 Comms Hubs in CSP Central and CSP South are compatible because they use the Cellular based Telefonica WAN that runs on the O2 network. However, CSP North runs on the Long-Range Radio based Arqiva WAN and the EDMI Standard 420/Variant 450 isn’t compatible with those aerials.

OVO’s Bristol HQ has a clever workaround of a giant aerial that sucks in the Arqiva WAN and a giant box (well, cabinet!) of tricks in the Smart Meter Lab that rebroadcasts that signal to the meters in the lab. Unfortunately however, that solution is way too expensive and bulky to deploy outside of test labs in its current form. Gets a brilliant signal though.

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This is my aerial. If this connects to the radio network why can’t I plug it into a smets2 meter?

 

Blastoise186
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That aerial is for a different purpose and unfortunately wouldn’t work with the Arqiva WAN.

The EDMI Standard 420/Variant 450 Comms Hubs also don’t have aerial ports to hook up an external aerial either.

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