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Hi all,

 

First of all, hello, I’m new here! I'm trying to troubleshoot some issues with two smart meter installations in the North West of England. They both are with suppliers other than Ovo, I won’t mention names but their suppliers/supplier’s contractors haven’t been able to resolve their issues to date.

My primary question:

Which DCC region are postcodes WN8 7ED and WN8 7PE in? (both fairly big postcode areas so no privacy issues sharing these).

 

Further background:

Both properties are within around mile of each other. One has an SKU2 cellular + mesh comms hub (with no external antenna fitted which is suspicious) which I understand to be a “South Region” hub. The other has a “Standard 420”, which I understand is a “North Region” hub. Both are attached to SMETS2 Landis + Gyr type 5533 meters. They have both been left in an uncommissioned state and have never worked.

 

Any general advice is welcome, and I appreciate they ultimately need to get their energy supplier to resolve this issue no matter what the actual fault is, but I’d like to understand things better to be able to make sure the right things get done by the right people. Right now they’re being fobbed off with “there’s no 2G mobile signal where you live which is why it isn’t working” - which is obvious nonsense as SMETS2 meters use 3G, not 2G. They’ve even been told by their suppliers that it’s a 2G mobile signal between the gas meter and the electric meter, so I have very little faith in them being able to resolve it, and I am strongly recommending they switch away to a supplier with a clue.

 

Thanks.

Have you tried the online checker @possiblemouse ?

https://www.energynetworks.org/customers/find-my-network-operator

Edit: just re-read your post. Have you looked at the DCC website? https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/our-smart-network/network-data-dashboard/

They have their own customer support team 

Hi @BPLightlog,

 

Thanks, that seems to tell you who the DNO/transporter is, not which DCC region the postcodes are in. Appreciate the efforts, but that doesn’t help me.

 

Cheers.

Sounds to me like both properties are right on the border between the Northern Territory and Southern Territory.

Technically the Southern Territory in that area is actually CSP Central, but Central and South are currently merged so they’re just one giant region (long story!).

Bear with me, I need to think about this one for a couple of hours. I’ll be back soon!

It looks like OS did some work on this for the DCC to map network coverage. 
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/customers/case-studies/smart-meter-coverage

I would therefore have thought that they can already give you an answer 

Sorry for the wait! I had a bit of a queue of other forum threads to handle as well - we get busy around here!

My best guess is that those properties are most likely in the border area where both CSP North and CSP Central are in-scope in terms of their service areas. In these cases, the installing engineer gets to use whichever they feel works best, such as whichever has the stronger signal.

The one with the SKU2 Comms Hub is on CSP Central via the Cellular based Telefonica WAN and is probably using a Mesh connection which links up to nearby Comms Hubs with a better signal and in turn boosts the signal for other nearby Comms Hubs - an external aerial is not required in these cases. What LEDs are flashing on it and what pace do they flash at? I use these as diagnostics, so if you can grab them, that’d be smashing.

The one with the EDMI Standard 420 is on CSP North and runs on the Long-Range Radio based Arqiva WAN. External aerials do not exist for these units. Please tell me what the WAN/HAN LEDs are doing on this unit and I’ll advise further.

Also, check out a tool we’ve got in the Forum Volunteer Toolkit. https://homebrew.n3rgy.com may reveal more clues that can help - but please redact MPAN/MPRN and other personal info before sharing anything with us.

@Blastoise186 first of all, many thanks for your help and excellent information. No worries at all for the wait, really appreciate your time. I’m awaiting a video of the lights from the people at the property but I’ve got a few specific questions in the meantime:

 

  1. Would you expect the border to be this far north? I appreciate it won’t be a flat line, but we’re about 15 miles to the South (actually more SE but 15 miles south is the same level as us) and we’re working perfectly on an LRR EDMI Standard 420.
  2. I’ve made some enquiries and everyone else on both streets is either using an EDMI Std 420, or a SMETS1 meter, or not smart at all. I can’t find any other SMETS2 cellular hubs in the area, and at least 20 EDMI ones (which by all accounts are working).
  3. Do the installers have the discretion to choose either LRR or cellular at a particular property? I was chatting to the guy who did mine and he said that it’s frustrating in some LRR regions as he can’t install a cellular hub if the property is marked as an LRR location. Surely the process is that if they can't get an LRR meter working at an LRR property, they should escalate this to Arqiva through the DCC, as it’s their responsibility to resolve.

Thank you for the link to the tool, it’s awesome. I put the MPAN in for the questionable one with the SKU2 hub and the only comms hub listed is a decommissioned EDMI Std 420:

 

Communications Device (Smart DCC responsibility) Device Type: CHF
Manufacturer: EDMI F106C]
Model: unknown 1433100AE]
Installed: 2021-10-05
 - Warning: Device Configuration has not been completed iDECOMMISSIONED]

 

Following this is the correct electric meter (confirmed with the GUID), and presumably correct gas meter (don’t have any pics of this yet), and these have a later install date.

Could it be possible that they’ve not managed to link the SKU2 as the property is marked as LRR, as implied by my SM installer?

 

Many thanks again for your time and help.

Hi @BPLightlog,

 

Thanks again for your efforts. I saw your edit to the first post, and the DCC just publish high level figures about how many properties are connected etc. Not particularly useful this.

In terms of contacting the DCC, that support page is for energy suppliers, not consumers. Consumers should contact their energy suppliers with any issues, and as mentioned in my post, the ones in question at these properties appear to be clueless.

Hi @BPLightlog,

..,

In terms of contacting the DCC, that support page is for energy suppliers, not consumers. 

Strange - they’ve always responded to my queries when I’ve been in touch. Anyway, hope you get to the bottom of things. 

I’ve just been able to answer question 1 using my own research:

 

If the MPAN starts 15, 16, 17, 18 or 23, it’s North. If the MPAN starts 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 19, 20, 21, 22 then it's South. Source: 

 

I’ve also realised that number 2 in my post isn’t actually a question, it’s a statement. I guess my question 3 is the most important one now:

 

Can a cellular hub intended for South/Central work in an LRR region? Although technically possible (i.e. there’s nothing stopping it connecting to o2 and getting a signal), is there some system restriction that basically stops MPANs starting with 15, 16, 17, 18 or 23 having a cellular hub associated with them?

 

And also: Do the installers have the discretion to choose cellular at an LRR designated property, if the LRR hub can’t connect? (I suspect not!).

I can answer the others for you - sorry for the wait! Being a volunteer in a bazillion places means that I can’t always hang around in one place all day. :(

The Cellular Comms Hubs cannot operate outside of CSP Central/South at all, unless the signal just so happens to reach beyond the border - which it can do in a few places. Likewise, LRR Comms Hubs definitely cannot operate outside of CSP North, unless the signal just happens to reach beyond the border, which does happen sometimes.

There is a crossover zone however, where both can operate alongside each other. Not exactly an intentional design feature IIRC, but useful all the same. It’s that crossover zone which can allow both types to operate in the same area at the same time.

If you’re in that crossover zone, installers can choose whichever type is considered most appropriate - usually based on signal strength and reliability in the area, but other factors come into play as well!

OK, this probably explains it then. They’re about 25 miles north of the closest southern region, and that is just the tip of Wales. Vast majority of the border region is 30+ miles away, so I’d expect outside of any overlap area.

 

In any case, one for their energy supplier to resolve. Thanks for your help @Blastoise186, it’s appreciated.

 

Another useful link I found:

 

https://utilitiessavings.co.uk/info/guides/electricity-distributors/

 

Combined with the knowledge of if the MPAN starts 15, 16, 17, 18 or 23, it’s North. If the MPAN starts 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 19, 20, 21, 22 then it's South, then you get a pretty accurate picture of the regions.

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