Thanks one and all, philosophers included. Do we think Aristotle was plagued by such issues, the counting of cockroaches to reduce rent??

Well, unfortunately the ancient philosopher Aristotle isn’t around right now, and it seems as if Timsonious and Jesstle aren’t here yet. But then again, you’ve got me at least! XD

What I can say is that the Comms Hub by itself does not store any usage data - that’s all stored on the meters themselves and the Comms Hub simply retrieves it from the meters when requested and forwards it onto whoever asked for it. For the most part, I think the only data stored on the Comms Hub is stuff like:

• Firmware for itself and any devices connected to it (especially within the Gas Proxy when a firmware update is being downloaded) - both the active version, previous version and next version may be stored at any given time
• Config data for itself - most likely things like how it’s meant to be communicating , which Site it’s installed at and what ZigBee GUID’s are authorised to be on the HAN. That sort of thing
• Event logs for itself - which can be useful for diagnostics
• Any data that is actively being processed at that exact time, such as an active SMETS Command or when an IHD is polling the meters - some of this might be held in RAM temporarily in order to process it
• Possibly a copy of recent usage data that’s in the process of being sent somewhere, to improve reliability during data transfer - but only temporarily
• And probably a handful of other things that are important for the Comms Hub to function

As for getting hold of a copy of your usage data, I think OVO is happy to do that for you at anytime on request. I wouldn’t recommend using GDPR or Subject Access Requests for that however. Technically speaking, OVO is entitled to charge an admin fee when handling that kind of request and there’s no guarantee that usage/billing data would come under those categories. A normal request to export your usage/billing data is probably faster and easier to do, since it won’t require OVO to do a full data dump of everything they know about you. 

Or I guess you could potentially use the API to grab everything?

@Simon1D wrote:

As far as I can tell, the only thing the Comms Hub remembers is consumption, known in Ovo-land as “usage”.

Ah… that’s an interesting hypothesis. I wonder if the Electricity Meter (ESME) calculates the difference between its last two readings before sending the result to the Comms Hub, or whether the calculation is performed after the transfer. Both units have a processor capable of doing this, and sufficient RAM to store the results.

Perhaps the ESME retains a copy of the actual readings for each HH period.

We should be able to work this out:

a: an OVO installer, like @Chris_OVO can be sent to site to replace just the ESME or just the Comms Hub. Suppose that happens at 10:30 and the next data-request from DCC isn’t going to occur until 00:20, what data has to be recorded at that point from the unit being exchanged?

We must assume that the unit being swapped-out is broken and unable to be interrogated. The Installer has the ability to directly contact the S2-team in Bristol who can issue a SMETS-command via DCC and they have their own Enigma software (on a mobile phone) which facilitates pairing etc.

b: The ESME (or a GSME) is a generic device sold in other countries who have different Smart Meter Networks. But the Comms Hub is designed specifically for the GB market and is supplied for each site by DCC.

Does that provide a clue as to what data must be available from within the ESME?

@Simon1D  wrote:

The wages of sin is death

or

The wages of sin are death

Fortunately this historic translation issue can be checked!

As it’s in the letter to the Romans, the original language would be Latin.

But both Wycliffe (14th Century) and Tyndale (16th) were translating into English clandestinely, using whatever manuscripts could be smuggled out of an abbey scriptorium at night and returned at Lauds the next morning.

The texts might be in Greek, Latin or Hebrew (OT) and verse numbering wasn’t much in evidence. Capital letters and punctuation weren’t generally present either!

The literal Latin for this phrase is stipendium peccati mors est…

but the Latin Vulgate more properly has

stipendia enim peccati mors gratia autem dei vita æterna…

There is no est (is). The translator infers this from the second half of the verse “but the gift of God is eternal life”.

Due to the way in which the English language versions emerged, they are least likely to agree with all other Bible translations in the world! We have a good 500 passages where the verse numbering varies from other languages, let alone the text!

The manner by which we are now trying to understand how usage data is derived from meter readings suggests to me that Wycliffe and Tyndale are alive and busy working for Kaluza.

Between you, I think @Transparent and @Blastoise186 appear to know enough to reach a definitive conclusion on this matter. I look forward to learning what it might be.

Of course, any inside information from Ovo staffers would be most welcome...

Just to step in here, as we’ve mentioned previously we can’t comment on the specifics of @fatbloke88’s billing accuracy here, as we don’t have access to their account and as this has now been referred to our Complaints Team, a dedicated complaints agent will be assigned to discuss the details with them directly.

I am keen to put to rest any speculation as to the accuracy of the information stored or sent by smart meters, so @Simon1D just to reassure you I have already forwarded your comments on to our Smart Metering expert so we can get the full lowdown on exactly what goes on behind the scenes. There are some very strict and clear rules about what the meter does and how it stores things. We need our members to trust the data as that's the key driver to them using the energy better and reducing their carbon footprint. So LOTS of work has gone into all this to make sure it's right.

I’ll be back with a full update once I hear more. 

And just to add - 

I’m guessing @Transparent meant to tag @Lukepeniket_OVO who is our resident Smart meter installer - Chris_OVO specialises in all things EV 

Thanks very much @Jess_OVO - it's that confidence that is currently at risk, so I look forward to learning more from your update, when it comes.

Mea Culpa! Yes, I meant @Lukepeniket_OVO 

I am enjoying our discourse on this matter and I am picking useful insights into meters and what they do along the way. Philosophy fascinates me but I’m sorry to say most of it goes over my head. The history of phrasing and translations was educational and witty and prescient. So thank you all I’ll continue to update as the situation changes. @Jess_OVO  The one contact in complaints is NOT working so far I’ve had responses from 3 different “Managers” each one varying slightly in info and and a lot (sorry to say in clarity). I have asked to be referred back to the one with whom I had the most satisfactory response… Watch this space

Ah yes, if only the still-there-but-unsupported-for-public-use-API had everything of interest(*), we’d be laughing - metaphorically, and perhaps even literally!

I genuinely hope (including for Ovo’s sake) that they have more than is made available by the API. Actually, I know they do. For one thing, Ovo do still have meter readings, because my Android app lists them (but the API no longer gives access to them). Actually there are still versions of My Ovo out in the wild that list meter readings too: see this here. Sadly tho, that doesn’t include the version that my account is linked to.

(*) As far as I’m aware (it’s hard to tell, what with the API being unsupported and all), my Python script already retrieves a copy of everything that’s there. At least, I believe it retrieves everything that’s available under the “daily” and “half-hourly” names.

Which prompts an obligatory health warning from me:

Anything I might say about what smart meters (and Comms Hubs, and the IHD6-CAD-PPMID that I have ) can and can’t do is usually an extrapolation from what I’ve observed them to do and what I have observed others (Ovo, Hildebrand, et al.), starting from smart meter data, to actually do (rather than what they claim).

Email received asking to change my reading frequency to daily, I chose HH. This now presents the issue that even if they were taking monthly readings (why?) We can not be sure that there wasn’t some glitch in the system at the point when consumption spiked last year.

As @Simon1D has suggested we may have used the energy but not now confirm or deny this and we are left (it looks like) having no way to challenge the consumption or the billing that resulted from it.

The issue for us though is that NOTHING in our consumption pattern has changed. no new appliances, no structural work or changes to the electrical circuit in the house and yet this years consumption pattern is well below the same period last year by40% approx.

In the 88 days since 14/07 our average daily consumption has been <14kWh/pd. 

The starting point for all of this was in July 21. At that time I was under intruction pressing “9” to get a reading on the SM.

Even if the DF tariff  was applied to those readings 20 July - 31Aug 21 the average consumption across that period was still only 13.77kWh/pd. I have all of those readings in photographic evidence date and time stamped with personal annotations as to how we were consuming electricity.

I suppose this is the heart of the dilemma, we know nothing has changed, yet we can not prove it and it seems neither can Ovo. Have we reached the end of it? Is there anything else we can do?

Cheers

I’d just like to emphasise that @Transparent has picked out a key question, here.

I laboured for a long time under what I now believe to be an illusion, that the Smart Meter/Comms Hub (for the moment, I’ll just lump them together, I don’t really care what’s where, exactly) really did have a time-stamped reading for every element of usage. I can see that this would increase the storage requirement by at least a factor two but, since the original proposal to keep 3 month’s data was (easily?) revised to 13 months, I’m bound to say that such fretting over storage capacity, if that’s what it is, betrays the mindset of one who, gosh, well they might even be as old as me.

There are some things that really are not relevant constraints any more.

PS Although there are some, Micro$oft for one, who seem able to bring the very latest hardware to its knees with contemptuous ease, just by releasing a new version of whatever malware they have convinced businesses to exchange their hard-earned revenue for.

Me? Bitter?? Possibly, but an advocate for free software with good reason.

Yeah, I love Free Open Source Software as well myself. GIMP, WordPress, Joomla and Ubuntu just being some of the examples of FOSS that I use on a regular basis. It’s also why I make all of my GitHub repositories have licenses like The Unlicense that fully permit others to re-use the stuff within for my more basic stuff, and probably something with lots of compatibility if I ever did more complex things.

You’ll have to trust my word on this, but I think you’ll find my laptop Samurott very difficult to overload. Especially with an AMD Ryzen 9 5900HS and an NVIDIA RTX 3050 Ti - not even Cyberpunk can overload it! Hehehe

Nice rig...

You recall we were offered daily readings last week or so I think, well despite saying yes and actually chooing the HH option it appears that the meter is still not sending readings through!!

I have entered readings virtually every day since and every day I have lookeds to see the message “we are collecting your readings automatically” and it has not yet appeared..

Ho hum anoyther call to CS and yet another complaint I suppose, not looking good for your stats is it @Jess_OVO@Tim_OVO ??

Your comment, @fatbloke88, reminds me that when I’ve had the “pleasure” of noticing negative values in the list of daily usage figures I almost always found, on looking at the HH figures for those days and adjacent days, that the HH data were absolutely fine. Rarely any missing values, and plenty of evidence for what I knew to be a consistent level of consumption.

It’s as if the HH data are completely ignored by Ovo’s system when it comes up with estimates for daily readings. I wonder if these behaviours are relevant here too?

Ive had a list of readings from Ovo since I started with them now and the initial view looks like it supports the billing (yikes).

I am going through it and will post the results as soon as I get them in order. Some initial points though;

I realise we have been through summer and lowest use seaon etc but I am struggling with the consumption volumes for example;

14/03/21 - 02/04/21 it shows an average DAILY read of 51kWh/pd which seems excessively high when NOTHING of substance changed in our usage pattern. I am really struggling to explain this.

The consumption values and readings throughout last year are monthly and therefore more difficult to separate and analyse, they suggest higher than ave usage 10kWh/pd?? but I do run a small business from home.

(strangely there was an “on site” meter read which was seriously wrong by a staggering 2527 kWh!!!)

Comparing this directly to summer I realise is unrealistic, I’m wondering though if others can comment on the apoparent variation and your own seasonal fluctuations? Do ours seem wildly excessive?

I understand that historis usage gathered from some other sources that may (anyone know what/which/how) be used by suppliers to validate consumption based on historical data. Is this correct and do you know if it’s possible to see this data.

I dont know if any of this can be used to challenge our bills or whether I’m chasing smoke but thoughts appreciated either way

TIA

14/03/21 - 02/04/21 it shows an average DAILY read of 51kWh/pd

Is that for electricity, gas or both?

Let’s remember that OVO’s figures should reflect what the meter readings are. They do not rule out a faulty meter.

Electricity only, Gas seems to be okay, despite having had the CH ona lot more during lockdown.

I can’t say it’s not a fault on the meter but I certainly can’t say it is. I’m left looking at readings and bills with apparently no way to see if they are actually a true reflection of our usage… I can’t reconcile the consumption values against our usage though. When we get through this winter maybe there will be some change that allows us to reconcile that difference.  But I’m not optimistic about the outcome and I am a bit worried for the future .

On a side note, to reduce our consumption/bills we are considering solar panels, can you guys offer any pointers as to good and bad things to be aware of at all?

Well I’m not confident that the meter has provided accurate readings. 51kWh/pd is far too high.

That’s the sort of consumption which would get me investigating the neighbours to see if they’ve tapped into my supply to run a cannabis farm in their garage!

Solar panels…. start here

then go here for more details of what is entailed in the installation

After that you can look at a PV Diverter option or a Storage Battery.

just when you thought you were past being set homework!

I agree. I would bring an outsider’s perspective to this. 2kW is a high rate of electricity consumption and frankly, I don’t think it could hide itself easily.

This is one time that the independent measurement of what is being supplied would be enormously helpful. A shame that the OEM setup isn’t quite as straightforward to set up as it could be. Nor available to rent for a short time… we need something as straightforward to use as those 13A adaptors monitor the consumption of whatever is plugged in, but which has a current transformer and plugs into a 13A socket. A bare-bones version of EmonTx, as already described by @Transparent elsewhere in the forum, as a possible school project...

External verification may be useful I certainly agree, there is no way I can think of to retrospectively look at the meter to check historical data and see if it was accurate. Is that correct, based on the fact that the SM does not actually keep a record of all previous readings??

I would be delighted if someone can convince me otherwise, but I have never seen evidence that a smart meter/comms hub stores anything other than usage. It can report the current meter reading when asked (obviously) but not, apparently, past readings.

(FWIW, that does seem to me like a flaw in the design of the smart meter infrastructure, but that one’s definitely not Ovo’s fault.)

hello All

Particular thanks to @Blastoise186@Transparent@Simon1D and of course to @Jess_OVO  thanks for your support throughout all of this, it’s certainly been interesting! Latest: after switching to HH on the 16 Oct, we now have a good few days of readings to look at. I started looking and got confused (not difficult)

Bear with me here..

1submit a new manual reading and review the HH data each day on MyOvo - not helpful as I can’t discern a consistent pattern

2 copy a bunch HH readings from MyOvo and paste into Excel spreadsheet

3 strip out unnecessary data (duplicated time fields).

4 pull out actual read value from xxkWh field

5 convert the above from text to numbers data type

6 amalgamate all of resulting data into one table

7 sum up all readings from above on a daily basis to give daily total

8 create bar chart from above data (excluding daily totals) - is this the best type of chart for this?

9 pull in daily consumption values from MyOvo

10 Notice discrepancies 21.43 kWh /13days - is this just because of roundings and simple summarising via Ovo?

11 pull in my own daily readings from the same period still shows a discrepancy of 16.86 (possibly 30.75)kWh/13days.

Points to consider:

Ovo HH readings are I believe consistent in time of day taken

The usage chart is not what is used for billing

Personal readings are not always taken at same time of day

I may have created an error in my data manipulation/analysis

Questions:

Why does the Ovo consuption chart not reflect accurately the HH reading/consumption values

Does the slight time difference between my daily readings affect any of the above

Why is there such a difference between the consumption values

Is there something going adrift within the Ovo consumption calculation system

I enclose below the summary table of data that I have used for this analysis.

Any thoughtrs or comments particularly in relation to my analysis/technique or choices would be appreciated