@bingbongovo2021  - here’s the relevant procedure to be followed by OVO in cases where their installer finds that there’s no WAN connection.

The Communications Hub was supplied to OVO by the Data Communications Company (DCC) and remains their property. So @Jess_OVO’s comments above are correct.

I found this interesting post from another forum recently which was a response from a utility supplier regarding the inability of Arqiva to communicate with their SMETS2 meters:

There is an area of the North Yorkshire Moors, which contains the RAF radar base at Fylingdales. This base is part of the Ballistic Missile Early Warning System with its primary purpose to give the British and US governments warning of an impending attack. Your address is located in the RAF Fylingdales region 33km from the Fylingdales boundary.
Arqiva has not declared your address as a working postcode, that is, we cannot provided service currently. The standard Communications Hub which we deploy elsewhere in the country has a radio frequency which would interfere with this sensitive region. To avoid any interference with the radar base we have developed the Dual Band Variant 450 Comms Hub which is currently in development and testing. The testing responsibility currently lies with the Data Communication Company (DCC) the company licensed by the government and regulated by Ofgem to connect smart meters and homes across the country to a single secure, digital network.

I’ve not yet read any official report as to the cause of the Bilsdale transmitter fire which I assume also affected the LRR communication with SMETS2 meters. It wouldn’t be anything to do with RAF Fylingdales would it? I presume the 450 Comms hub was located at Bilsdale whilst under test. Just curious.

Thanks @Cactus - I need to separate out two concepts here.

The Dual Band Communications Hub label refers to the use of two frequencies for the Home Area Network (HAN). The lower 868MHz is an ‘extension’ to the Zigbee protocol and has better penetration of walls.

Dual Band Comms Hubs are required for problematic sites in all three territories of GB. They offer better connection for gas meters and IHDs.

In the Northern Territory, the Wide Area Network operates on the 440MHz band which was originally used by the old ITV analogue service. It actually spans 412-455MHz, but is still regarded as a single band.

The way that Arqiva and EDMI designed the WAN was for the lower frequency of the range, around 412MHz, to be used for transmission from the Comms Hub, whilst 453-455MHz was for receive.

The situation near Fylingdales is complicated by 412MHz interfering with a frequency used by the RAF Monitoring Station. For that reason a new 450 variant is under test which will employ 453-455MHz for both transmit and receive.

That is unrelated to the designation of Dual Band for the Comms Hub.

Arqiva is wanting to withdraw from involvement in the Smart Meter transmission side of its business. They’re currently open to offers.

Thanks for that information Transparent. Interesting to learn that Arqiva is wanting to withdraw from SMETS transmission. I hope the 450 variant passes the trial test so that my SMETS2 meter will no longer be dumb, whilst assuming the interference from RAF Fylingdales is the cause of my non-comms issue.

Not really related, but is this what was once rumoured also to cause the electronics in some modern cars to reset spontaneously, bringing them to a sudden halt?

Or was that an urban myth, or was I an April Fool, or ...

@Cactus  wrote:

assuming the interference from RAF Fylingdales is the cause of my non-comms issue.

Erm… I think Fylingdales is a listening station. They don’t get to choose the frequencies.

Dear President Lou Shenko,

Would you mind awfully if Belarus and its neighbouring ex-Soviet countries shifted your military frequencies down a notch or two?

I’ve had a word with our chaps on the Yorkshire Moors and they think they’ll be able to eavesdrop on you just as easily below 400MHz.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Bit of a delayed response from me but this is a very interesting thread and makes me content that I’ve not yet made my 2nd attempt at getting a smart meter installed (the 1st being blocked by the installer who said he couldn’t do the installation because the current gas meter is sat on a wooden shelf - go figure).

In theory, the answer to all of these communications tech issues is 5G. That will provide a large-scale network capable of scaling to millions of devices within an area and should come in at a lower cost than 4G.

I attended something about 5G a while ago and had my expectations confirmed that practical 5G (beyond the limited mobile phone use currently available) is a couple of years away at the moment and the standards are still evolving. But it should make a big differencefor things like this once it kicks in fully.

The other wireless network that is very rapidly gaining ground is LoRa. The Helium network in particular is a very interesting concept and worth looking at. It is only low bandwidth of course but might be sufficient for smart meters.

Well I’ve learnt something new today - LoRa and Helium are networks I’ve not come across before.

Just gonna tag our network expert, @Blastoise186 as I’m sure he’s more clued up on the potential use of these for the smart network. What do you think, Blaster? - An improvement to the current Arqiva network perhaps?

Yes, it definitely sounds very plausible at the absolute minimum! If it were my decision, I’d certainly be willing to allow trials of these networks to be performed.

Unfortunately however, I get the feeling this might have to wait until a future SMETS3 specification comes out. I can’t see how you can tack on this kind of change into S1 or S2…

Personally, I also feel that the lack of Mesh capability in the Northern Territory is a missed opportunity. That could have proven to be extremely useful in certain scenarios. Oh well.

Every week that passes, I’m greeted by @Jess_OVO telling us she’s just learned something new on the Forum. Perhaps we should become associated with a university and offer distance-learning for Members who wish to up-skill themselves and gain points towards a(nother) degree

I do at least understand the issue with ‘old’ gas meters that have unorthodox mounting.

Such meters as were mounted on shelves did not comply with the rule for there to be a support bracket position, and for some, the connection pipework itself was deemed to be structurally supportive.   The proposed Smart Meter could not be similarly supported and so the Installer rejects the job at the inspection stage.

In this case I’m assuming that there is no meter mounting bracket or easy way to attach one. You can see the required metal bracket in these photos:

I can’t imagine that the rejection it’s related to the material being wood (combustible) because the plastic enclosures we use today would quickly melt and vapourise if the meter caught fire!

There are some ‘super-installers’ within OVO’s workforce who are sent out to deal with problematic sites. They are particularly experienced and receive additional training. You could email Customer Support with a photo and ask if your site falls within their remit.

There will obviously be a charge for structural alterations, but you will at least then have a fully compliant meter location. It’s clearly cheaper to go down this route than to first employ a separate Gas Safe tradesman to install a steel bracket and then ask OVO to send back their installer with your Smart Meter.

Happy to say that every day’s a learning opportunity here on the OVO online community, @Transparent!

From new-fangled networks to phases and inverters, there’s no limit to the concepts to get our heads around on our path to Plan Zero.

So as ever it’s a big thanks from me (and all our other forum visitors) for all the knowledge-sharing and peer-peer support that you’re a vital part of. 

Yes, understand that this would be quite a change from the current model and might be considered something of a rival network so might not be commercially comfortable. It would certainly be better for the rest of us though.

If you look at the Helium map, you will see that there is still quite a long way to go in order to get anywhere near complete coverage. However, some commercial radio antenae mounted high-up would have a very long reach and could easily fix that. There is a Swiss guy on YouTube who built himself a LoRa transciever that was able to talk to a test micro satellite that has been put up into orbit.

In this case I’m assuming that there is no meter mounting bracket or easy way to attach one. You can see the required metal bracket in these photos:

No, it is in a basement rather than outside the house - and is, I think, mostly supported just by the shelf. No idea which lazy workman bodged it in. It was here long before we moved in 20 years ago.

There are some ‘super-installers’ within OVO’s workforce who are sent out to deal with problematic sites. They are particularly experienced and receive additional training. You could email Customer Support with a photo and ask if your site falls within their remit.

We I was originally told that someone would get in touch. They never did of course so I left it. That was in the v1 meter age anyway I think so I wasn’t that bothered or interested having seen some of the issues at the time.

The problem now is different though. I work from home full-time, my daughter is doing A-Levels and my wife often works at home.

So just when are we going to want the power to go off for the electric part? Well NEVER really!

Some very high commercial radio masts eh…?

What would you say if I told you that Arqiva has a whole bunch of those all over the UK? XD

In fact, three of them alone - the Droitwich, Burghead and Westerglen Transmitting Stations alone have more than enough horsepower to blast the Radio 4 LW signal and the RTS Service across pretty much the entire country at once. Think they’d be good for Helium or LoRa by any chance?

I imagine that they would be rather overkill for LoRa 

Helium seems to be designed as a distributed network and is a very interesting blockchain concept so I can’t necessarily see them wanting to put too much into the hands of a single commercial entity but who knows.

Just in case anyone stumbles onto this thread and wonders what has happened to my smart meter. It’s still not connected. Nobody has any power to force Arquiva to fix these problems, so of course they are not going to do anything, well until I suppose someone pays them to do it. Not really Ovo’s fault I suppose, more the halfwits who drew up the contract.

I've tried to skim through the many long posts on this thread, so might have missed something. However - a suggestion : is it not possible to provide a passive signal booster, with a yagi antenna mounted higher up that can talk to the nearest base station, linked by coax to a patch antenna stuck on the Aquiva Comms unit on the smart meter?

Ps I'm a radio amateur and retired spacecraft engineer. 

Tony 

Yes, it is, and several unhappy LRR victims have reported success with this sort of arrangement. I’ve also posted the idea in these forums several times (although I’ve tried to avoid terms like yagi so as not to deter the unfamiliar.) 

The most vocal proponents are EV users unable to profit from cheap charging rates because their smart meters aren’t connecting to the WAN. This is a long thread, but some of the posts are encouraging. This idea is a cheap solution, needing only a few pounds’-worth of gear and perhaps a willing son-in-law to help with the construction and installation. 

One of the potential pitfalls is identifying the wrong TV mast (your “base station”) to point the antenna at; many TVs will be fed from a more local Freeview Light mast, while it seems that Arqiva only mount their SMWAN antennae on the big ones, which are often a long way away in Scotland. This map may be helpful: Full service Freeview transmitters . Arqiva have apparently met their target (99.5% of households, I think), so they’re not likely to be mounting more aerials to increase coverage.

Trials are in progress with a new sort of dual-mode communications hub which includes a provider-agnostic 4G SIM as an alternative to LRR. This will eventually (in a few years’ time, maybe) be helpful for some customers, but not the many who have neither LRR nor 4G coverage. Heath Robinson may be their best bet 

So no surprise that our smart meter is still not connected, we get emails from ovo with laughable comments about it. Another customer with an electricity meter in the same location has been persuaded to have a smart meter fitted - although she informed her supplier that it would probably not work., sure enough, no connection. So now 800 pounds worth? of kit wasted. Our money.

There seem to be so many of these things not working I simply can’t believe Arquiva’s claim of 99.5% coverage. But since they can’t be forced to fix the problem why should they care?.

Meanwhile our meter in France, that sends the data back down the power lines is fine, as are all French smart meters. And they don’t seem to having regrets about security. And they are charging people who refuse to have one installed.

I am aware that an aerial can be constructed to relay the signal, but I’m not ready to do that yet, although I am increasingly upset about being unable to profit from some tariffs. I recently tried to explain this to someone on ovo chat and he was either too stupid or unwilling to understand.

It’s such shame that no common sense can be injected into the system. I’m sure it’s not OVO’s fault directly, but it would be great if they could exercise more control over the installers. We had problems when a smart meter was first installed with our solar panels causing systems to crash, because it looked like we were bypassing the meter. There was an awful lot of money wasted in new smart meters. It took months to get it sorted.  If I lived a bit closer to you I would be happy to experiment with external antennas, although there seems to be some misinformation around on what frequencies they are actually using. As a radio amateur I am against Power Line data transmission in principle - those transmission lines are awfully long antennas which can send out interference to those of us searching for weak signals.

Tony

The LRR used for the SMWAN is in the 420MHz band, except for an area near the RAF Fylingdales early-warning radar station on the N Yorks moors, where 450MHz is used to avoid interference. This is from the EDMI 420 communications hub user guide:

SM WAN specification

Standard : ETSI EN300 113-1

Frequency Range:

• Transmit: 412-414 and 422-424 MHz
• Receive: 422-424 MHz

TRP: 1W Maximum.

Modulation:

• Transmit: 2SFSK, 4SFSK, 4SFSK-HB
• Receive: mPass2, m4Pass2

This is the only communications hub being deployed in Scotland. 

What misinformation have you seen about frequencies?

Thanks Firedog, I've only been looking at the posts and links here, and I'm sure I saw that the 900 MHz band was also in use, but maybe that was a possible future option. I apologise if the word 'misinformation' is a trigger word.

Not in North Britain, I’m afraid. That’s the GSM (2G) band, which comms hubs further south will revert to if 3G fails, so different wireless technology altogether.

A 710mm dipole up top and a fraction of that by the comms hub, connected by as short a length as possible of the lowest-loss coax cable you can find, is the recipe that works, I gather.  

Not at all, and no apology needed! 

I have the same problem connecting to the Arqiva network. With the Comms Hub placed in the usual place (on top of the electricity meter), I could not get a WAN signal.

One thing you could try is to use a Kaifa FL100 adapter (the suppliers’ installers have access to these) to separate the Comms Hub from the electricity meter. This has a 75 cm cable that can put some distance between them. This is occasionally used because an electricity meters could produce enough interference to cause problems for a Comms Hub in close proximity, especially in a marginal reception area. I tried this, but it didn’t help my situation.

The next thing to try would be to extend the cable on the FL100 to allow you to move the CH even further away from the electricity meter. This could then allow you to position it where you do get a reception. I tried this as well but it still didn’t work.

I eventually solved it solved it by having the Comms Hub separate from the electricity meter, moving it high up at the back of the house and powering it from a separate 12V supply coming from the loft. Yes, I know I’m paying to power the CH but it’s 12V @ 100mA so I don’t think it’s going to significantly affect my bill. Note the Comms Hub communicates to the electricity meter through Zigbee, not the cable; the cable only supplies power from the electricity meter to the Comms Hub.

This worked, much to the installer’s surprise, who was convinced it wouldn’t as he thought the communications between Comms Hub and electricity meter was through the connector.

Just a word of caution. Attempting the above may trigger tamper alarms to your supplier. ALWAYS get permission first.

I wasn’t suggesting the homeowner tries it themselves. If it wasn’t clear: all of this was done with an official installer present.