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Smart meters and EV's supplying the grid



I see that you are proposing that EV's can supply the grid - how will the costing work?
Presumably we (EV users) will be paid a premium rate to supply peak demand and be recharged at a lower night time rate. Is this already in the smart meters?
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Best answer by Tim_OVO 20 August 2017, 14:26

I see that you are proposing that EV's can supply the grid - how will the costing work?
Presumably we (EV users) will be paid a premium rate to supply peak demand and be recharged at a lower night time rate. Is this already in the smart meters?


Thanks for the topic @wyedean

We believe in electric vehicles and the technology involved in powering them. Energy storage in general is something we see as vital for creating a more robust and adaptable grid. The details on how this is achieved and the implications for EV or battery owners are still not confirmed. Instead of guessing, I'd welcome anyone with some knowledge or opinions on this to leave a comment....

Tim
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Hi there @wyedean welcome to the forum and thanks for posting there are a few topics covering EV's

One can be found here https://forum.ovoenergy.com/all-about-energy-24/electric-vehicles-or-ev-s-we-d-love-to-know-what-you-think-444

@Lucy_OVO & @Tim_OVO hopefully can hekp you with this one

Hope this helps
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I see that you are proposing that EV's can supply the grid - how will the costing work?
Presumably we (EV users) will be paid a premium rate to supply peak demand and be recharged at a lower night time rate. Is this already in the smart meters?


Thanks for the topic @wyedean

We believe in electric vehicles and the technology involved in powering them. Energy storage in general is something we see as vital for creating a more robust and adaptable grid. The details on how this is achieved and the implications for EV or battery owners are still not confirmed. Instead of guessing, I'd welcome anyone with some knowledge or opinions on this to leave a comment....

Tim
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The new 2018 Nissan Leaf is designed to be vehicle to grid (V2G)
http://www.v2g.co.uk/2017/09/2018-nissan-leaf-revealed/@
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As far as I can ascertain, V2G will work in much the same way as Solar Store: https://www.ovoenergy.com/ovo-solar-store.
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The difference is two fold
1. Your battery when in a car can have more than 1 purpose .
2. The car costs WAYYYYY more ~ havnt quite worked out the finances of the deals yet... Seems to be a bit pointless tbh.
Nice idea tho in an emergency power situation , more details needed.
A rechargeable battery has a finite number of charge/recharge cycles. This will vary with many factors such as the battery technology, the depth of discharge, the rate of recharge, temperature, etc, etc.

I wouldn't want to use our vehicle's battery as a supplier to the grid because it would undoubtedly reduce its life as a power source for the car, and replacing it would be very expensive.

My personal view.
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Good point, @Hairy Animal.

Hopefully the reduction on the lifespan of the battery from doing this would be minimal, as they're quite robust.

Nancy
Can we have an update on V2G? This is something I’ve been aware of and watching in the news for years. As a driver of a leaf (about to upgrade) and owner of solar panels this looks very attractive.

I understand the new Leaf comes embedded with a bidirectional charger....but how will participation in V2G affect the contract regarding battery life? Mileage affects payments in PCP or PCH contracts and V2G will have some impact....although it might be minimal.

I see the relevant Innovate UK grant has been awarded. Are the details weeks away or months away?

Any info appreciated! Cheers
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Hi @Bluesn00,

This is a much larger subject than you might think. I've been researching V2G for a few months because of another Trial that I'm involved in within the UK, but I'm currently embargoed from announcing.

Please remember that I'm a fellow customer, so unlike the Moderators, I'm more free to express what I think is going to happen with UK Electricity Management without being constrained by OVO's own policy and future products. @Tim_OVO's answer from last August still holds; V2G is a very important part of OVO's strategy, but even if he knows, I don't think the Directors would be happy if the Forum became the avenue for major innovative announcements!

So, what I understand is this:
  1. The forthcoming SMETS2 Smart Meter technology will be required to link together the various components of a V2G system.
  2. SMETS2 introduces the ability for Energy Suppliers to offer variable-tariff contracts based on Half-hour (HH) packets, which is already the industry standard for them purchasing energy to satisfy customer demand. This replaces the current concept of Economy-7 in that my Supplier could offer me a lower rate to purchase KWh's on windy-days if there is a surfeit of turbine generation in my area.
  3. Electricity sub-stations are to be fitted with OpenLV monitoring systems (by EA Technology). This will allow Consumers and Suppliers alike to see the peaks and troughs of local demand, allowing lower rates during times of little usage. Conversely, during times of higher demand or to balance the Grid, a Supplier might offer a Customer a price to buy energy from their solar-panels or EV.
  4. SMETS2 software introduces the concept of Auxilliary Load Control Switches (ALCS) and the manufacturers are required to implement at least 5 channels per Smart Meter. An ALCS-connected device can be configured to pass electricity dependent on a number of preset parameters. An ALCS "Smart Washing-Machine" can be instructed to switch on when electricity is less than 10p/unit and to stay running until end of cycle even if the next HH period has a higher price.
  5. V2G is a combination of an ALCS-aware charger unit and software embedded in the vehicle. The EV can be set up to permit up to a preset %age of its stored energy to be resold to the Grid when the offer-price reaches a threshold set by the Customer.
  6. Suppliers will use Mass-Storage Management software to control the release of electricity to the Grid according to the preset parameters from their Customers and the Demands notified to them by National-Grid (tempered geographically by OpenLV monitoring). Thus if there is a sudden drop in Solar PV generation in West Hampshire caused by clouds, the Management software plugs the gap by drawing on stored charge in Li-Ion batteries (EV's and Home-based) rather than the current strategy of using Nuclear power. OVO have shown their commitment to this by purchasing VCharge UK last year. VCharge owns Mass-Storage Management protocols, currently employed to control Storage Radiators in Customers' homes.
  7. SMETS2 instructions will continue to be handled by DCC, and OpenLV will be added to this GSM network. ALCS commands will be passed between Suppliers and Customers using the Internet.

I am discussing with the Moderators how we might be able to better show this information. I am currently very restricted by the Forum software and cannot even embed colours in a List(!).

I actually already have sets of diagrams showing how all the above technologies hang together. If you want to hear more on this subject, feel free to ask the Moderators to enable me to display it outside of the current technology restrictions. 🙂
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Thank you Transparent

I just searched for "ALCS smart meter" and found a number of DECC resources.
Thanks for the info Transparent, you certainly live up to your username!

What about the vehicle leasing though? I’ve heard conflicting comments about the effect on battery life. How will this affect the leasing terms most of these vehicle will be bought under? I can imagine that if you are only allowing 5kwhr of your 40kwhr battery to participate in V2G then the effect on battery life could be small.

But of course the frequency and rate of V2G participation are also key...do the systems mentioned control charging/discharging rate? Frequency regulation may only require very short connections of less than a minute....but if it does that many times an hour at high rate that may wear equipment out.

Many questions that I guess are being sorted out. Do you think V2G will launch to the public in the next 6 months?
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Sorry about the delayed response @Bluesn00,

I don't know enough about EV Battery degradation. I asked this on another Forum thread and received the response that it was insignificant.

However on another thread, @ajwatts wrote:
my car has a 24kw battery, as it is 3 years old, battery has degraded and gives a range now of a maximum 80 miles.

which means it certainly is a factor to be taken into account.

Of course if V2G is operational, then it becomes possible to instruct your Energy Supplier to re-sell your stored charge at a rate which negates the depreciation in the battery. That's a factor we should be feeding back to OVO's programmers once they commence writing the V2G App.

Leasing the vehicle adds yet another issue to be taken into account. I imagine that the advent of V2G will also see a range of interesting/related products. What about buying the car, and leasing the battery under a deal which means it gets swapped out every 4 years?

This means the 2nd hand batteries may have reduced capacity, but still command a reasonable price because they're required to service the Home-Battery (XStorage) market.

I don't see how V2G can be offered for domestic customer until SMETS2 meters are available. The best guess is that this will be November at the earliest.
Thanks for your thoughts. It does seem likely that V2G won’t be offered domestically till Q4. The vast majority of Leafs are on PCP lease contracts so I imagine it will need a special contract for V2G use. They use to have separate contracts for car and battery although Nissan have moved away from this model. Getting 3 parties to agree on a lease contract will be a lot more complicated. However where there is a will there is a way.

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