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V2G Charging/App Suggestions - please add yours!

  • 16 October 2019
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V2G Charging/App Suggestions - please add yours!

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@aaronr@Amy_OVO

 

One of the most asked questions from curious friends and neighbours is “How much money do I make?” Well for those new to V2G or those already on here who’d like to know more I’ll try and explain.

 

There are many permutations to how much electricity you export to The Grid such as how big is your battery? what’s the state of health of your battery? how much you want left in your car for the morning? (minimum level on the App), what time your car is available to export to The Grid? and how much your house consumes? (remember all the time you are exporting to the grid you are not importing so for that period, say from 4pm- Midnight, all the electricity to run the house is coming from the car….and every kW you don’t use during that time is available to export to the grid at 30p per kWh (minus what you paid for it) which works out about £9 a month average so I’ll give you my circumstances and you can work them out yourself to your parameters…

 

I ran the 40 kW LEAF for 4 months setting the time to be available as 7.00am and the minimum level at 25%. The car was in the garage most of the day and night and so began exporting about 4.00pm most evenings (worked out by taking the time it needs 100% charge at 7.00am, working back to charge at 6 kWh and then working back to export at 3.4 kWh down to 25%...ie about 4.00pm.)

Though nominally the car is 40 kWs, in reality you only have access to 38.5 ish kW...plus the batteries state of health after 2 years was 94.8% of it’s original capacity dropping the original 40 to 37.92kW. So 25% minimum to be left in the battery gives about 28.44kW available….minus about 7 kW used in the house so in reality my 40 kW LEAF had about 20 kW available to export to the grid which is what it was exporting generally.

I took delivery of the new 62 kW LEAF on Friday and connected it to the V2G charger about 8.00pm with 22% charge left in it (state of health 99.84% with 4 miles on the clock in the showroom) and it started importing straight away and charged up overnight to 95%. Obviously new car, sunny day, play time so I put it back on charge just after 12.00 noon with 90% left in the battery and almost straight away it began exporting to the grid at 3.4 kWh and though I lost half an hours worth of exporting time about 9.00pm due to the V2G charger tripping out, by midnight I’d exported 28.3 kW to the grid.

I appreciate that that figure will not be the same every day, in fact it should be more if I have 100% available to export but remember exporting for 12 hours and more means 12 hours of usage by the house as well.

So, for a first day export of 28.3 kW I’m quite happy. I’ll keep you posted how things progress and a better pattern shows itself.

 

Oh and as to the question How much money I make? I reckon on the 40 kW LEAF it was a maximum about £90 a month and on the 60 kW LEAF a maximum about £140 a month….and that’s after I take off what I paid for it.

Attached is the 3 days of importing and exporting from (Bottom) 8pm Friday night to 8.00am on Sunday Morning…..

 

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@Andras @monkeychew Just a query here….have you had the V2G charger replaced or re programmed. If so it deletes all the information on the App and starts afresh as it’s a completely new unit….I was prewarnd about it thanks to @aaronr and saved all my previous logs…

Leo

Hi @Leo Moran , sorry just noticed your question here. I did not have mine replaced, works as a treat luckily! Thanks to Mario who very professionally installed it. I can access the history now, thanks for asking!

 

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@aaronr@Amy_OVO

 

One of the most asked questions from curious friends and neighbours is “How much money do I make?” Well for those new to V2G or those already on here who’d like to know more I’ll try and explain.

 

There are many permutations to how much electricity you export to The Grid such as how big is your battery? what’s the state of health of your battery? how much you want left in your car for the morning? (minimum level on the App), what time your car is available to export to The Grid? and how much your house consumes? (remember all the time you are exporting to the grid you are not importing so for that period, say from 4pm- Midnight, all the electricity to run the house is coming from the car….and every kW you don’t use during that time is available to export to the grid at 30p per kWh (minus what you paid for it) which works out about £9 a month average so I’ll give you my circumstances and you can work them out yourself to your parameters…

 

I ran the 40 kW LEAF for 4 months setting the time to be available as 7.00am and the minimum level at 25%. The car was in the garage most of the day and night and so began exporting about 4.00pm most evenings (worked out by taking the time it needs 100% charge at 7.00am, working back to charge at 6 kWh and then working back to export at 3.4 kWh down to 25%...ie about 4.00pm.)

Though nominally the car is 40 kWs, in reality you only have access to 38.5 ish kW...plus the batteries state of health after 2 years was 94.8% of it’s original capacity dropping the original 40 to 37.92kW. So 25% minimum to be left in the battery gives about 28.44kW available….minus about 7 kW used in the house so in reality my 40 kW LEAF had about 20 kW available to export to the grid which is what it was exporting generally.

I took delivery of the new 62 kW LEAF on Friday and connected it to the V2G charger about 8.00pm with 22% charge left in it (state of health 99.84% with 4 miles on the clock in the showroom) and it started importing straight away and charged up overnight to 95%. Obviously new car, sunny day, play time so I put it back on charge just after 12.00 noon with 90% left in the battery and almost straight away it began exporting to the grid at 3.4 kWh and though I lost half an hours worth of exporting time about 9.00pm due to the V2G charger tripping out, by midnight I’d exported 28.3 kW to the grid.

I appreciate that that figure will not be the same every day, in fact it should be more if I have 100% available to export but remember exporting for 12 hours and more means 12 hours of usage by the house as well.

So, for a first day export of 28.3 kW I’m quite happy. I’ll keep you posted how things progress and a better pattern shows itself.

 

Oh and as to the question How much money I make? I reckon on the 40 kW LEAF it was a maximum about £90 a month and on the 60 kW LEAF a maximum about £140 a month….and that’s after I take off what I paid for it.

Attached is the 3 days of importing and exporting from (Bottom) 8pm Friday night to 8.00am on Sunday Morning…..

 

Thank you for the analysis Leo, its very interesting! It made me look up my statement, which by the way shows 0 kWh usage, I hope it stays that way! :grin: (There must be some issue with communication between my smartmeter and OVO) At least i will earn a nice interest on my credits!

So I used 1180 kWh (about a third more than I had used before the trial having my 24 kW Leaf already!) in 2 months which cost £200 . I earned £88 from the export. (plus received £75 for signing up). I normally export 70% - 25% so this would not be a lot of wattage anyway. I would have spent around £110 for two months with previous supplier (Bulb) Iam on the better energy 18 and suppose to pay an extra £5 for green electricity although can`t see this on my illustrative statement?!                                                                                                  So I will not be earning as much as I was told, but I am happy to support the trial, have the smart charger, which I believe using less electricity (used 2 kWh less compared to my podpoint charger to charge the car to 100%, although I only carried out this experiment once! ) It also seems to charge the car up quicker. SOH of battery is around 90%, no degradation as of a week before, but slight improvement! So overall I am happy with the trial so far!

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Would be great to have a feature that could show the net export to the grid rather than just the gross export from the cars.  Also some sort of CO2 tracker that would estimate the CO2 savings from the export.

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Occasionally someone comes up with a suggestion to which the response could be “how come this person actually survived child birth with such a stupid question”…. and then you think about it and suddenly you think….how come no one thought about that before...and what are the potential pitfalls or safety implications to it? Should we warn customers not to try this at home? etc. Well this is one of those comments.

I have a set up which allows me to charge using two of my three EV chargers at the same time. The OVO V2G can charge using the CHAdeMO port, the PodPoint using the Type 2 port and the Type 1 charger if I get a second older LEAF. So The CHAdeMO imports at 6 kWh and exports at 3.3 kWh and the PodPoint and type 1 chargers import at 6.6 kWh…...but I only use one of the latter at a time…...but what if I connected both the V2G CHAdeMO charger at the same time as the PodPoint charger? Is there a breaker in the car to stop them both charging at the same time or one to dominate the other? Will the car take both chargers at the same time and charge at a rate of 12.6 kWh? Could I charge with the Pod Point type 2 connector up to 6.6 kWh whilst at the same time exporting 3.3 kWh using the CHAdeMO connector, effectively making me 15p per kWh 24/7 (hehehehe). 

The way my chargers are set up I can actually do exactly what I have suggested above...but if I did (which I don’t intend to do) would something go bang and sparks fly?

Leo 

 

 

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Hello @Leo Moran 

 

I hope you are well.

 

I can honestly say this question was a bit of a head-scratcher, you would think that on an EV where it can take more than one type of connection, the manufacturer would overlap the connectors slightly to prevent this being possible, although looking at the leafs’ charging port, it is definitely more than possible to plug both in at the same time. 

In theory, only one port should be active at a time and able to accept a charge as your Type 2 draws AC and the CHAdeMO would be drawing DC.  As you can imagine, this hasn’t been done before (at least on record) and I’m certain it would be rather anti-climatic with nothing actually happening. That being said, we definitely don’t recommend anyone trying this out. 

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Thanks for that Ash, yes it is certainly a head scratcher but realistically if it were dangerous you would think Nissan would warn somewhere about doing it or put safety features in place to prevent it happening. I’ll contact the Nissan dealer to see what they say…

 

Thanks again.

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 I’ll contact the Nissan dealer to see what they say…

 

@Leo Moran, to be on the safe side, I’ve also done the same thing, I’ve reached out to Nissan and will update you here when I hear back :)

 

 

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Thanks….

 

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Occasionally someone comes up with a suggestion to which the response could be “how come this person actually survived child birth with such a stupid question”…. and then you think about it and suddenly you think….how come no one thought about that before...and what are the potential pitfalls or safety implications to it? Should we warn customers not to try this at home? etc. Well this is one of those comments.

I have a set up which allows me to charge using two of my three EV chargers at the same time. The OVO V2G can charge using the CHAdeMO port, the PodPoint using the Type 2 port and the Type 1 charger if I get a second older LEAF. So The CHAdeMO imports at 6 kWh and exports at 3.3 kWh and the PodPoint and type 1 chargers import at 6.6 kWh…...but I only use one of the latter at a time…...but what if I connected both the V2G CHAdeMO charger at the same time as the PodPoint charger? Is there a breaker in the car to stop them both charging at the same time or one to dominate the other? Will the car take both chargers at the same time and charge at a rate of 12.6 kWh? Could I charge with the Pod Point type 2 connector up to 6.6 kWh whilst at the same time exporting 3.3 kWh using the CHAdeMO connector, effectively making me 15p per kWh 24/7 (hehehehe). 

The way my chargers are set up I can actually do exactly what I have suggested above...but if I did (which I don’t intend to do) would something go bang and sparks fly?

Leo 

 

 

As soon as you plug in the AC plug to the car, even if its just a dead lead not connected at the other end, the car drops out the CHAdeMO connection. I have done this on a Rapid before that was locked up and wouldn't release the CHAdeMO.

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@vespalads , Thanks for that, much appreciated and handy to know if I have the same problem.

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Any chance we could turn off the VTG charger via the app? 

A proper app would be good then we can receive notifications when anything happens to easily know when faults occur. 

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Would really like to be able to start and stop charging sessions from the app. 

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@Andras @D10hul @djriot @TeaTimeSoon @Kat Leaf @Leo Moran @jp1 @mal600908 

Thanks for all of the valuable feedback, everyone!

 

This is being collected and reviewed by the team responsible for improving the app, and the firmware. Any suggestions made here will be taken into account for potential new features, or upgrades to existing features.
 

We’ll have more information on this for you all soon.

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@Ash_OVO , @Tim_OVO @Transparent @aaronr 

 

It’s now 20 days since I was put in the sin bin, either intentionally or automatically for exceeding the average export limit of 18 kWs….on 106 occasions. I accepted my slap on the legs but I’m now wondering if it’s actually worth plugging the car in at all as, though it exports about 250 watts every hour I suspect it’s using more electricity to tick over than I’m exporting...at my expense.

 

So I thought it would be useful to have a look at my OVO Account and Kaluza account alongside each other. I knew I would use a lot more power when I started the trial but what I didn’t anticipate until I’ve done the maths is that I’d be using more electricity even after I’d taken off the exports….

 

If you look at the table, for 10 months before the trial my monthly average consumption is 305 kWs per month….but after the trial started, taking off the amount I export back to OVO I’m actually using on average 507 kWs per month. I’m yet to check the cost but the extra electricity is costing me £30 a month...yes I know I get money back but on the face of it the amount I’m getting back isn’t what I at first thought when you take off the extra £30. Nothing has changed from last year to this other than getting a 62 kW LEAF instead of the 40 kW LEAF but as I’m doing less miles in the new one than the previous one the figures should be less not more. I got the new one in December.

My query is this, is running the unit whilst I’m not exporting costing me money...ie I’m having my legs slapped twice? If it is please let me know how much longer sentence I have to serve so that I can disconnect the V2G charger and save some money.

 

Leo

 

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This is bizarre @Leo Moran.

As @Ash_OVO explained here, the limit of 18kWh per day is applied by the Kaluza Platform as part of the warranty agreement with Nissan.

That being so, how can you possibly have exceeded this export limit?

And if the “mistake” is being made by Kaluza’s code, how come you are the one who loses out?!

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@Transparent, I was a naughty boy….I exceeded the 18 kWs on numerous occasions (though I didn’t actually know there was a limit till they told me in February) and when I got the 62 kW LEAF it went over 30 kWs….but I saw a flaw with the App which allowed me to dial back the limit on my battery after I’d topped it up to 95%, to 50%. This caused the app to export back to the grid in the morning so I managed to get a couple of hours extra export to what I was already exporting….yes I confess part of it was to get a few extra pounds...but I was also trying to win the league table that OVO Created...you may remember me querying how someone had more exports than I had….. That said I only did it for the last 3 or 4 weeks in January and even then broadcast on this site what I was doing, wondering if they’d patch the flaw or if it was OK. The electricity I downloaded in 2019 was all controlled by Kaluza...

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Ah… ok, I understand @Leo Moran

Well this another reason why I feel that us customers should be involved in discussions on possible future tariff structures for V2G and Storage generally.

Any tariff must surely take into account a minimum guaranteed export rate/payment over a long period of time. Otherwise how would someone assess the viability and timescale for their Return on Investment (RoI)?

 

By reading here what the V2G Trialists have posted, and combining that with knowledge I’ve gained elsewhere on how electricity distribution works, I’ve already devised a possible way to use this technology fraudulently for financial gain.

I won’t actually do so, and nor am I going to expand on how it would work. But it would be possible to commit such a fraud in a way that it also created a substantial positive effect to combat Climate Change. Even if the CPS were to prosecute, there would be no certainty that a reasonable jury could be relied on to convict!

You might suggest that Kaluza would act to prevent such a fraud. However, as more chargers are installed, it would be increasingly difficult to detect. Moreover both Kaluza and Nissan would obtain significant financial benefit from such a crime, albeit as innocent parties.

I’m pretty sure that no one else has yet stumbled to the same conclusions that I have, because otherwise the V2G Trial would have substantially more participants! But since @Tim_OVO is working today, I think it likely that he’ll want to draw this to the attention of Cassie and Tom.

@D10hulmight also want to comment.

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@Transparent 

yes a number of trialists were aware and exploring the flaws in the system, possibly not on this scale though ! 
 

The biggest issue for the lack of take up is basically down to the benefit for the customer, a lot are mention prices per unit and multi tariffs etc, the tech side doesn’t seem to be a issue now, it’s rare I hear of a issue but if there is one it’s a outage or complete unit failure. 
 

But back to enrolling users, this should be full of users and as a project it needs to be, OVO could possibly do more to encourage with more incentives? This project should be the talk and envy of the EV world yet people are still on the other side of the fence not even on the fence, at the end of the day your asking people to put up with potential mishaps, take days off for installs iron out bugs and use their own EV battery !! For this project for very little reward, yes in the future you could expect it to be more competitively priced but for now all the cakes and trinkets should be thrown at the trial pioneers on a way to say thanks, and maybe then they would not be so inclined to exploit loop holes in order to make it worth while for them selves ?     

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“possibly not on this scale though ! “….Thanks @D10hul I didn’t realise I was the Train Robber’s gang...none taken….I didn’t exactly go looking for the loophole, I just found it and almost as soon as I found it (it took a couple of days to realise exactly what was happening) I e-mailed Kaluza to let them know thinking they’d tell me not to be naughty and stop it...but no, they didn’t. Nor did they fix it…..not sure if it’s still available. I did say I wouldn’t use it again and sticking to my word. But this is supposed to be a trial and my thought is I’m just doing what any member of the public would do and there was nothing to say that the app wasn’t supposed to do what it was doing...I didn’t get an instruction book telling me how it worked, it’s just been upgraded and tweaked as we’ve gone along.

Incidentally now I’m not exporting I can see that the charger uses between 50-70 Watts an hour just to tick over...which is costing me about £7 a month or £5 so far. This is normally added onto the export tariff they give us but as I’m not exporting neither am I getting it back. (that's not a whinge lads and lasses).

 

 

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Erm… @Leo Moran when you write

                               this is supposed to be a trial

 

could you please clarify your intended meaning?

 

 

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Nice one… @Transparent 

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@Transparent, @D10hul, @aaronr, @Ash_OVO,

 

Just a follow up to the above. If you scroll back on this page 3 months you’ll see there when I got the 62 kW LEAF I exported 28.3 kW on the first day and the export started about 12.00 noon. Clearly this was well in excess of the 18 kW daily limit and outside the normal daily download timeline but no one mentioned anything to me that I was doing anything wrong in fact as far as I was concerned I wasn’t…

 

As for the flaw with the app, again it’s not down to me manipulating it. I didn’t notice what was going on with the 40 kW LEAF and just now see what’s happening with the 62 kW LEAF. The grid takes electricity from the car if the battery has more than 25% in it based on the time it’s required to be ready in the morning. So with the 40 kW LEAF as I required a full battery by 7.00am it would take electricity from 4.00pm till midnight and then charge till 7.00am. But the 62 kW could export 15 kWs more or 5 hours earlier….so it was just exporting according to the time, not the app.

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I get this, my 62 also exports up to and over 25kwh per day and has done quite regularly, the 18kwh per day limit is one we have not seen in writing nor the workings of it, but it is believed its a average not a fixed daily limit 

 

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