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What happens to my V2G export payments at the end of my 2 year contract?



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Userlevel 6
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The parasitic losses of the V2G charger (roughly 2kWh per day) is a very real thing. The charger has to provide the power to have the car ready to charge or export whenever it is commanded and is currently always immediately ready (contractors closed and trigger locked) all of which consumes power. There were rumours in 2020 of a deep sleep mode coming with the firmware release that would also allow solar matching and grid supply limiting (to allow V2G installs with other chargers without changeover switch and limited incoming supply) but this never materialised.

It is a shame that the proposed improvements were halted because it could make significant efficiency and practical improvements to what is otherwise an excellent V2G charger.

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There’s a thread on the topic already, link below.  I re-read, it’s ~2kWh/day overall standby losses, independent of conversion efficiencies.  Before we had an elec car that would be 20% of our electricity bill, and the biggest single electricity hog in our house:-( 

I’ve accepted it due to the V2G energy timeshifting benefits.  When our fixed tariff is up in a couple of months we will either disconnect it, or more likely change firmware to V2H with a cheap night time tariff.  So far as I’m aware, the charger is incompatible with Ovo’s drive anytime, and so I’m guessing this tariff is more complex than a fixed cheap rate time.  I’d like to keep using the charger, rather than disconnect it, so I am likely to leave Ovo. 

 

 

 

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Ovo drive anytime is not compatible with the V2G charger and to be honest would be a bit unfair if it did. In theory the export uplift was the model the trial went with and it has been pretty good until recent rises.

Unfortunately OVO took the commercial decision to not allow V2G trial members to have this tariff even if they do have a compatible charger because of fear of abuse.

We have two EV’s and two chargers so if we weren’t on the trial our second EV (non leaf) could take advantage of the cheaper flexible charging rate. I understand their concern but as I have demonstrated already to them it would be extremely impractical to attempt to abuse the system for financial gain because you have little control of when charging actual happens. I see it as no greater risk than people charging at work and then coming home to export which is already covered in the T&C’s. 
 

It will be interesting where this all ends up but I suspect most people will either move to other providers unless OVO make it more appealing. 

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I agree that Ovo drive anywhere + V2G tariff would be an unfair combination.  I think the V2G tariff was weird, favoured people with PV and low electricity use over heavy users without.  I guess it was picked for it’s simplicity.  What would be equitable would be to lose the V2G tariff, reconfigure the unit to V2H, and use it with Ovo drive anywhere, or preferably a fixed time cheaprate tariff. 

Some of the units have been reconfigured to V2H and are presently with the Octopus Go tariff, profitable without subsidy.  I’m suggesting Ovo could do similar - it’s an emerging market; charge up at night for self use during the day.  There are so many “home batteries” now for the same task, by Givenergy and others.

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With the 1st April price increase on buying electricity but no increase on V2G export tariff is it still worth using the V2G when losses in import v export are taken into account?

Userlevel 7
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Hiya!

OVO has promised to increase the export rate soon, but it’s not been announced just yet and the team are still working on it. Please keep an eye on the forum for updates.

Ultimately, it’s your decision and yours alone. If you wish to pause your exports temporarily, let the team know via smarthome@ovoenergy.com and they’ll make the arrangements. Once you’re ready to resume, let the team know again and they’ll resume the exports for you.

Userlevel 7

Welcome back, @IanJBelper.

 

As @Blastoise186 has mentioned any changes to our V2G export rate have not yet been announced and the Smart Home team can offer to pause your exports in the meantime.

 

Hope this helps decide the best option for you. 🙂

Curios to know more about V2H re-configuration. Is it done by Kaluza or Indra or third party? Cost? 

Anyone had any experience with switching to another supplier taking the V2G unit with them? Who maintains the control of the unit or does it work/makes sense only with V2H?

 

On the fairness question, in theory it depends on what are the alternatives: taking demand off grid and exporting mainly benefits OVO/Kaluza who have better access to other sources of revenue for flex (Wholesale, BM, STOR, potentially CM, DSO services), which in theory should be more valuable than just price arbitrage on tariffs (assuming no PV). Although, in practice,  aggregated flexibility would need to be scaled sufficiently to be profitable for OVO/Kaluza.

Userlevel 6
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Curios to know more about V2H re-configuration. Is it done by Kaluza or Indra or third party? Cost? 

Anyone had any experience with switching to another supplier taking the V2G unit with them? Who maintains the control of the unit or does it work/makes sense only with V2H?

 

On the fairness question, in theory it depends on what are the alternatives: taking demand off grid and exporting mainly benefits OVO/Kaluza who have better access to other sources of revenue for flex (Wholesale, BM, STOR, potentially CM, DSO services), which in theory should be more valuable than just price arbitrage on tariffs (assuming no PV). Although, in practice,  aggregated flexibility would need to be scaled sufficiently to be profitable for OVO/Kaluza.

Indra (who developed the V2G charger) are currently testing V2H for previous OVO V2G trial customers and potentially new customers who are purchasing the Indra V2G charger themselves. It looks very promising and is likely to lead to more future development of the charger itself which it appears Kaluza are no longer doing. V2H and Octopus Go does work out cheaper for many customers who are currently on the OVO trial but this may change depending on OVO’s impending announcements regarding tariff’s and export rate for trial members. I don’t believe OVO/Kaluza have large enough, dependable aggregated resources to benefit from much revenue streams apart from arbitration and demand reduction.

I personally would like to see a TOU tariff and export payment that enables the V2G trial to show a genuine case for both OVO and the customers and incorporates real benefits to having solar with battery storage (like Octopus go).

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Has there been any update to the V2G Export Tariff post April 1st 2022 ? 

Userlevel 7

Hi @RobWallace,

 

I’ve not heard of anything new since the update from Jess_OVO above.

 

When we hear of anything, we’ll be here to let you know. I suspect you’ll also get a notification of any changes directly from the OVO Smart Home team... 

Userlevel 7
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Do we have any update @Tim_OVO , @Jess_OVO ?

Userlevel 7

We’re still waiting for an update from the team on this one, @Jequinlan.

 

We’ve passed on your comments and are hoping something should be announced in the next couple of weeks.

 

Thanks, as always, for your patience. 🙂

Come on OVO get the v2g export tariff sorted its gone on for too long. Im on trial and due to end october and the way its going from what i am reading is everyone id jumping ship to V2H and going to octopus energy as they seem to be forward thinking. Now come on stop being a typical corporate entity saying were waiting. Sort it.

Userlevel 6
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I agree that Ovo drive anywhere + V2G tariff would be an unfair combination.  I think the V2G tariff was weird, favoured people with PV and low electricity use over heavy users without.  I guess it was picked for it’s simplicity.  What would be equitable would be to lose the V2G tariff, reconfigure the unit to V2H, and use it with Ovo drive anywhere, or preferably a fixed time cheaprate tariff. 

Some of the units have been reconfigured to V2H and are presently with the Octopus Go tariff, profitable without subsidy.  I’m suggesting Ovo could do similar - it’s an emerging market; charge up at night for self use during the day.  There are so many “home batteries” now for the same task, by Givenergy and others.

To be honest, if I switched the unit to V2H and could use both chargers for drive +anytime them I would still be financially better off moving to Octopus Go. 
Ovo coming up with a competitive time of use tariff would be a game changer. I would rather have a decent rate upfront and know exactly what my bill is than count on rebates and charging data (especially after the V2G trial experience).

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I’ve just received an email from Ovo to advise that the export rate it going up.

Instead of a set figure, the export rate will be your tariff amount + 15p.

i.e. if you pay 30p per kWh you will receive 45p per kWh back and therefore make a profit of 15p.

 

It’s all detailed here : https://www.ovoenergy.com/electric-cars/v2g-export-rates?fbclid=IwAR3KaNKtbqwRaXz5Z7Nv2ELWyn0yZOIW24CmQJHOOn683oyqumT5V4mHUjk

Userlevel 6
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Me too, the rate is good. It’s still a shame they aren’t allowing drive +anytime for a second car / charger but it will certainly make the summer appealing 😁

 

The only thing they don’t make clear if the uplift is applied to the pre VAT rate or the rate you actually pay (I will assume pre VAT rate to avoid disappointment).

Userlevel 6
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I’ve just received an email from Ovo to advise that the export rate it going up.

Instead of a set figure, the export rate will be your tariff amount + 15p.

i.e. if you pay 30p per kWh you will receive 45p per kWh back and therefore make a profit of 15p.

 

It’s all detailed here : https://www.ovoenergy.com/electric-cars/v2g-export-rates?fbclid=IwAR3KaNKtbqwRaXz5Z7Nv2ELWyn0yZOIW24CmQJHOOn683oyqumT5V4mHUjk

So which one is it? The quoted rate and the actual rate are contradictory. 

The actual rates only contain the efficiency factor of 1.12 on the uplift, not on the base price. Either the quoted rate is too high, or the actual rate is too low. 

Userlevel 7

I’ve just received an email from Ovo to advise that the export rate it going up.

Instead of a set figure, the export rate will be your tariff amount + 15p.

i.e. if you pay 30p per kWh you will receive 45p per kWh back and therefore make a profit of 15p.

 

It’s all detailed here : https://www.ovoenergy.com/electric-cars/v2g-export-rates?fbclid=IwAR3KaNKtbqwRaXz5Z7Nv2ELWyn0yZOIW24CmQJHOOn683oyqumT5V4mHUjk

 

Was just popping here to say this. Beaten to the mark by you eagle-eyed trialists!

 

Any feedback or questions following the announcement post below, we’ll forward these to the team and post any clarifications following the bank holiday weekend. 🌞

Initially the tariff +15p export rate looked like a reasonable and fair way to stay on OVO V2G. However the more I look at it the more questions and holes there are in the proposal.

  1. is the rate fixed from July 1st to Dec 31st as stated? If so what happens when tariffs rise in the autumn? That would wipe out the 15p uplift. Or is it the 15p is fixed and the actual export rate will change every time there is a tariff change?
  2. Previously the uplift was quoted before the round trip efficiency factor was applied, currently 35p is paid at 39.2p . In the example it appears that the 15p is after the 1.12 efficiency factor has been applied to the real uplift is only 13.4p
  3. The efficiency factor is only being applied to the uplift element, not the total export amount as done currently. Therefore 1KWh imported at a cost of say 35p would only result in 0.89KWh exported at 50p (35+15) which would equal 44.5p worth of exports. So the actual uplift is only 9.5p and this will reduce further with higher import rates.

I hope i have some of this wrong, but the 15p deal does not look so good anymore.

Userlevel 6
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Initially the tariff +15p export rate looked like a reasonable and fair way to stay on OVO V2G. However the more I look at it the more questions and holes there are in the proposal.

  1. is the rate fixed from July 1st to Dec 31st as stated? If so what happens when tariffs rise in the autumn? That would wipe out the 15p uplift. Or is it the 15p is fixed and the actual export rate will change every time there is a tariff change?
  2. Previously the uplift was quoted before the round trip efficiency factor was applied, currently 35p is paid at 39.2p . In the example it appears that the 15p is after the 1.12 efficiency factor has been applied to the real uplift is only 13.4p
  3. The efficiency factor is only being applied to the uplift element, not the total export amount as done currently. Therefore 1KWh imported at a cost of say 35p would only result in 0.89KWh exported at 50p (35+15) which would equal 44.5p worth of exports. So the actual uplift is only 9.5p and this will reduce further with higher import rates.

I hope i have some of this wrong, but the 15p deal does not look so good anymore.

Exactly. I hope that 1 is not an issue - that is the whole point of the new offer. 2 and 3 is weird, and it may just be a miscommunication. I believe the original offer of a 6p uplift did apply the efficiency factor to the whole amount, and not just the uplift. 

 

Userlevel 6
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I would as an experiment do the maths for a typical day. Just for fun, I did 10 kWh imported to keep the numbers simple.


With my import rate at 29.31p +vat = 30.78p inc vat
Cost of importing 10 kWh to car = £3.08
July 2022 export rate would be 30.78p + 11p (I have solar) = 41.78p

Assuming round trip efficiency is 89% I would export 8.9 kWh and receive £3.72 from OVO.
To keep the vehicle connected and ready for 24 hours is approximately 2 kWh at a cost of 61.6p. (To export 8.9 kWh in a 24 hour period actually consumes 12 kWh).

 The actual cost of having the car connected to enable the 8.9 kWh to be exported is £3.08 + £0.62 = £3.70.


Profit from V2G = 2p for the day (compared to 62p when the trial first started).


This will of course vary depending on how much is exported throughout a given day but not by much (the more you export, the less the 2 kWh / day losses matter).


Even with the new rates, the only thing that keeps it financially viable for me is the solar export rate.


Note: this is not a criticism of OVO, these rates need to be commercially viable for OVO to continue to support the V2G Trial.
I believe V2H (without export) and a time of use tariff may be a better option. It would allow storage of excess solar and cheaper rate electricity and minimise imports from the grid at high rates.

Userlevel 6
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@PurpleV8 @MrPuds Have you decided what you are doing based on this new offering?

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Assuming round trip efficiency is 89% I would export 8.9 kWh and receive £3.72 from OVO.

I think the 89% are already included in the calculation, and are added to your export payments, so you do not have to consider them here. Which increases your profit to about 40p per day. Still far from convincing, but not nothing. 

Where you do benefit more is with the solar export. The payments for that are much better than anywhere else. 

Overall, I agree: the case for V2G is marginal at best. V2H is much easier to justify financially. And that is what I am planning to pursue, do to a number of factors including an excruciating fight with OVO over the miscalculation of my direct debit payments. 

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I turned down the exporting on my car once the rate become unviable - I didn’t stop the exporting, just didn’t connect the car much to allow it. I think the new approach, which as I understand it is linked to the dynamics of pricing, so when the import price rises as it will in the autumn, so will the export price. This is a more reasonable outcome. I started the trial on a 15p import price and 30p export price, now I guess it will be 30p import and 45p export, so not as appealing from the perspective of impacting my bill (and will get worse in the autumn), but way better than the existing situation and probably enough for me to reconnect the car! Fair play to OVO for doing this, it would have been great if the decision had happened a few months ago as we’ve all known what was going to happen for some time. But overall, I think this is a fair compromise in the current climate.

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