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What happens to my V2G export payments at the end of my 2 year contract?



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OVO need to give us some assurances fast that they are working on something, otherwise this trial is dead. There is no way I will be exporting come April’s rise.

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Any more thoughts on this @Tim_OVO , @Jess_OVO ????

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Keeping the OVO theme and the fact that most trialist will be out of trial within a short period of time, now would be a great time for OVO to retain those trialist all on the V2H scheme with a decent rate and cheaper overnight rate - trial specific, I don’t mean we want Electricity for nothing but an attractive rate would be a drop in the ocean customer wise as OVO customers are so many and we are so few in comparison and would be great for morale of the trialists, customer retention for OVO, and us doing our bit supplying real world data.

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Sorry for the delay in getting back to you on this one, @Jequinlan, @Sam72, @RobWallace, @MrPuds, @NeilG.

 

I’ve passed all the comments you’ve made on to the Smart Home team so hope all the points you’ve raised are fully addressed in the response below:

 

We appreciate that at the present time the proposition has reduced in value. Much like other V2G projects, the Feed in Tariff and Smart Export Guarantee, the export credits are not tied to energy wholesale prices, and they therefore remained static over the course of the two years from September 2019 until our recent 5p uplift.

 

We’re continuing to provide the uplift to ensure trialists still have a financial incentive to export, although we realise this is now less.

We also continue to add extra to cover round-trip exports, ensuring that you do not lose out for any standby or transmission losses. This means that the actual payment amount for 35p and 31p exports are actually 39.2p and 34.7p respectively - above the import rates of contract renewals affected by the price rise.

 

Our tariff rates at this time are below the 39.2p Export rate, and therefore Exporting is still providing an overall net profit. With regards to standby “vampire drain”, it’s worth noting that this is minimal, and there would be an energy cost to the end user regardless of them using a Smart Charger, a V2G device, or setting the V2G to charging only.

 

It’s been noted that there are frustrations that the V2G could contribute to battery degradation, and trialists are not receiving “compensation” for this in the form of high export payments. The data we have seen so far has demonstrated that battery degradation has not been above or beyond the expected levels of degradation typically seen with the Nissan LEAF battery.

 

We’d also like to reassure you that the maximum daily export limit was actually set by Nissan themselves, and that the batteries remain covered by the point of sale warranty offered by Nissan.

 

We truly believe in this technology, and will continue to explore ways that we can develop our offering in the future. There are ongoing discussions about how OVO’s V2G offering will look in both the short and long term, and we are determined to create a V2G offering that works within the current unstable Energy market, and also works for our trialists, OVO, and for the wider grid as a whole.

 

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I personally have not seen degradation relating to this at all and heard nothing from others regarding that, secondly I do hope that OVO will pull the proverbial rabbit from the hat and surprise us all. I’m waiting ……………………………………..

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I have about 28 days to make a decision …. and I am awaiting eagerly that short term proposition. I am one of the most supportive of the concepts of V2G and in fact, at times it can avoid the network “Buying in” at peak times so actually see a significant overall incentive to keep going, but financially, this needs to have a hand here for the few of us to help evangelise this... I do hope that OVO will pull the proverbial rabbit from the hat and surprise us all. I’m also waiting ……………………………………..

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@MrPuds , ovo have a chance, right now, in less than 2 weeks to save the whole project. Question is, .... will they. @Tim_OVO @Jess_OVO ????

The have the same chance they always had: come up with an equitable pricing model. And for most of us, they have until exactly 1 April to do so, which is when the current pricing model fails (assuming the next price cap is indeed 30p). 

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Everyone is being forced on to the standard variable, there is no opportunity to switch, fixed rates are unviable. The issue is not now (albeit as bad as that is), it is come April when the variable caps go up 40-50%. Can you provide an assurance that at no point will participants in this trial export at less than the import cost? Thank you

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Everyone is being forced on to the standard variable, there is no opportunity to switch, fixed rates are unviable. The issue is not now (albeit as bad as that is), it is come April when the variable caps go up 40-50%. Can you provide an assurance that at no point will participants in this trial export at less than the import cost? Thank you

Including the round losses dont forget !

 

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@RobWallace You’re absolutely right of course...

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We also continue to add extra to cover round-trip exports, ensuring that you do not lose out for any standby or transmission losses. This means that the actual payment amount for 35p and 31p exports are actually 39.2p and 34.7p respectively - above the import rates of contract renewals affected by the price rise.

 

I appreciate this, and it aligns with my observations, but the system losses are significantly higher than assumed in this calculation. 

Our tariff rates at this time are below the 39.2p Export rate, and therefore Exporting is still providing an overall net profit. 

 

Of course not, the profit is made on the import and on V2H, because the whole tariff (import and export) is inflated for what it is. The span between high and low prices is actually larger than it was last year, so V2G should be more profitable, despite the losses being a bit more expensive. If you come to any other conclusion, it would be interesting to see a clear argument for that, one that looks at both import and export. 

It’s been noted that there are frustrations that the V2G could contribute to battery degradation, and trialists are not receiving “compensation” for this in the form of high export payments. The data we have seen so far has demonstrated that battery degradation has not been above or beyond the expected levels of degradation typically seen with the Nissan LEAF battery.

And that is correct, but at 30p import, the whole scheme will be a financial loss unless you have solar, and if you do have solar, you certainly do not want to V2G at all. 

I don’t disagree, I think V2G is hard to make commercially viable. But it would be a shame to bring this project to an accidental end. 

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May be there needs to be more transparency on how much of our export is V2H vs V2G so that we all have a better handle on this as opposed to the black box calculation that none of us can see (or at least I don’t know where we see it).

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The new ofgem price caps are currently due to be released on the 7th Feb, although they don't go live until April. We might also hear about any government support or changes to the price cap mechanism around the same date. 

Perhaps OVO will be in a better position after the 7th Feb to look at pricing options for the V2G and V2H compared to the overall market 

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I too am watching very carefully to see what happens when the price cap rises… as other have mentioned, the project will end if we are selling at a loss! 

Having a high tech box and all the permissions required seems mad, if we will not be able to use it properly… I would therefore like to find out how the Indra box is controlled and what all the issues are regarding its future if the project collapses. Has anyone else managed to get it controlled by a third party… another supplier or Indra themselves for example? I am very loath to accept Kaluza controlling it if I am no longer part of the project, because it will be very difficult to know what is actually happening!

In the mean time… can someone from the Smart Home Team please explain how 31p is actually 34.7p. Like all the numbers and associated maths in this project, nothing ever seems to be written down… I do not know from one month to the next exactly how much I have exported (only the estimate provided by the Kaluza App, which ignores my own consumption and any PV exports). I believe the only way would be to try and retrieve an export measurement manually from my Smart Meter at around the exact time the project decides the month is up (00.00 on the 1st of the month, or at a working/office hour closest to, or something else?) and then try and work out an equation from the figure I am paid a few weeks later…. Been there, tried that, failed miserably….too many unknown variables!

Finally, has anyone managed to find a way using the Indra box for V2H? Mike Schooling (the Indra Boss) demonstrated a similar looking box being used in just this way on a BBC Midlands Today story some months ago and has also hinted on other blogs that a V2H offering might be forthcoming… but I can find no further information and Indra do not really talk to individuals...

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Hi @NeilG  - all very good points you raise. Would be very helpful if there was a user doc for trial participants where all of the issues raised on this forum are addressed. I’ve no idea how people calculate round trip loss etc. Would be good to see a few equations written down (as my maths teacher used to say!). It’s going to be interesting if the trial ends what people do with the box - I haven’t discovered any other provider that one could switch to doing V2G, but I’m loathe to have it dismantled. Guess you could just leave it hanging and get another (almost certainly smaller) charger installed alongside...

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I do wonder if the OVO V2G issues are similar to those with the Octopus Agile and Octopus Outgoing tariff which even more unviable currently....  

These are todays Agile 30 min rates. As you can see there are few times when the Outgoing export rate is higher than incoming rate to charge a battery. 

There are no price plunges on the incoming rate. The incoming rate is basically 35 for every 30min slot. The only reason it isn't dramatically higher is that Octopus have price capped the rate to 35p to protect customers from the current wholesale market rates. I dread to think what the graph would look like without the protection.... 

OVO may already be seriously subsidising the V2G pilot with the current rates they are offering. 

Another example is the smart export guarantee for excess solar paying only about 5p.

This situation could go on for years unless the market as a whole evolves irrespective of anything OVO does. I am no expert... 

It seems very difficult to compete with the price cap plans  or longer term hedged pricing plans like Octopus Go. 

 

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That’s exactly what I feared @Jeffus with regards to Agile. If it’s literally just pinned to the max price cap right now, there’s hardly much point to it. I dread to think what it would be if they didn’t put that cap in place. It’s also exactly why right now, I’m happier (and better off!) staying with OVO on a fixed flat rate deal.

Given my own usage patterns, I doubt ToU would be of much benefit to me anyway - and I don’t drive so can’t use V2G/V2H. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if both suppliers are heavily subsidising all these offerings at the moment. Personally, if ToU (in both kinds!) and V2G/V2H are to realistically have a chance in the long term, I feel more work is needed to iron out these issues. It remains to be seen as to when that might happen...

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That’s exactly what I feared @Jeffus with regards to Agile. If it’s literally just pinned to the max price cap right now, there’s hardly much point to it. I dread to think what it would be if they didn’t put that cap in place. It’s also exactly why right now, I’m happier (and better off!) staying with OVO on a fixed flat rate deal.

Given my own usage patterns, I doubt ToU would be of much benefit to me anyway - and I don’t drive so can’t use V2G/V2H. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if both suppliers are heavily subsidising all these offerings at the moment. Personally, if ToU (in both kinds!) and V2G/V2H are to realistically have a chance in the long term, I feel more work is needed to iron out these issues. It remains to be seen as to when that might happen...

I expect the Octopus Agile 35p protected rate will increase when ofgem raise their price cap so Agile may be even worse then.... 

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If the price cap does not reflect the market rate, then we are all done for… including OVO, the V2G project and every other electricity company and all their customers… hence the proposed enormous rises coming.

With respect to the graph… the export rate does follow the expected model, it is just the import rate… my guess is that because of all the other issues, this has been capped so it never goes below a certain rate (35p) to make sure profits are maximised even if makes a nonsense of Agile Concept.… I suspect that at this time, all the companies are under enormous pressure and are haemorrhaging money, so I’m sure the accountants will running the show.

It is possible that once the cap rises, some normality will return to the market, even if that normality is 100% more than it was before….

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If the price cap does not reflect the market rate, then we are all done for… including OVO, the V2G project and every other electricity company and all their customers… hence the proposed enormous rises coming.

With respect to the graph… the export rate does follow the expected model, it is just the import rate… my guess is that because of all the other issues, this has been capped so it never goes below a certain rate (35p) to make sure profits are maximised even if makes a nonsense of Agile Concept.… I suspect that at this time, all the companies are under enormous pressure and are haemorrhaging money, so I’m sure the accountants will running the show.

It is possible that once the cap rises, some normality will return to the market, even if that normality is 100% more than it was before….

The price cap was introduced by Octopus to protect users. The actual short term wholesale prices at the moment are significantly higher. The cap means Octopus are subsidising the agile tariff.

To be clear it is not a minimum cap it is a maximum cap. The minimum could be zero or even negative but the current issues have changed the economics.

We have to expect things will change in the next few years as you say. 

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It’s good to see trialists here sharing their thoughts, feelings and concerns. We’re making sure this gets seen. I’m also hopeful that the communication that Jess_OVO shared above has been seen and considered and has helped.   

  

Can someone from the Smart Home Team please explain how 31p is actually 34.7p. Like all the numbers and associated maths in this project, nothing ever seems to be written down… 

 

 

For this one, @NeilG, as the Round Trip efficiency (kWh into the car -> kWh out of the car) is 89%, we apply an uplift to the 31p rate, meaning that we actually pay 34.7p. The prices we pay can be found here.

 

 

 

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Thanks for sharing the web page with the rates… Not seen or found that before… Is it new?

So the idea behind the uplift is that for every kW you take as an export, I need would need to buy back 1.12kW to replace it, because of the conversion losses (internal resistance, etc..) in the process?

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Working out my efficiency rate, if my calculations are correct amount to 86.2%. I work a 2 shift system now and my lateshift is 15:15 - 23:30hrs and I think accounts for the lower than average efficiency, my 30kWh leaf was costing me to be on the scheme because of the shift change, I changed to a 62e+ which reversed that but I don’t think the rise in electricity rate will be good for me with no solar and have asked to be considered for the V2H. Still a few calculations to do before then but its just so up in the air !!!

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May be there needs to be more transparency on how much of our export is V2H vs V2G so that we all have a better handle on this as opposed to the black box calculation that none of us can see (or at least I don’t know where we see it).

You can find that in the CSV spreadsheet that you can download into Excel. The numbers are not quite the same as your meter (because the V2G unit is not calibrated), but they are pretty close. Usually, you would get around 20% V2H and 80% V2G, which is much better than solar (where the assumed split is 50/50). 

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In the mean time… can someone from the Smart Home Team please explain how 31p is actually 34.7p.

The export payment includes a factor for the efficiency, which I always thought was 88%. 

So 31p/0.88 is 35.2p, which is not quite it. Maybe 31p/0.89 = 34.8p, I would call that close enough. 

This should cover round trip losses, so if you put 1kWh into your car, you can export 0.89kWh, and 0.11kWh are lost in the process. In my experience, the losses are slightly higher, especially in winter (due to a higher resistance of the battery). And of course there are the idle losses when nothing happens (which are around 1kWh per day for the charger and another 1kWh for the car). You can see the losses in the car on the app, but not the idle losses in the charger (as far as I understand). 

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