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When will OVO announce what will happen after the Vehicle to Grid (V2G) trial ends?

  • 20 January 2021
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Userlevel 1

Hi,

For ~12 months now we have been told that Ovo are deciding what will happen when the V2G trial ends.  This information will be extremely helpful for us triallists to know, so can you confirm when this will be announced please?

TIA

Dave

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Best answer by ArundaleP 15 February 2021, 23:44

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Hey there @wwfc_dave ,

Thanks for bringing this up. As far as I’m aware, you get to keep the charger for a small fee, or have it removed free of charge. However, let me see if @Tim_OVO can grab any more news in case it’s changed since.

Userlevel 1

Hey there @wwfc_dave ,

Thanks for bringing this up. As far as I’m aware, you get to keep the charger for a small fee, or have it removed free of charge. However, let me see if @Tim_OVO can grab any more news in case it’s changed since.

Thanks, the main question is what will the charger be capable of, assuming I buy it after the trial? I will have to change my car soon and if there will be a V2G, V2H or similar system offered, it may sway me to stick with Chademo. If not, I’ll likely opt for a CCS car.  I’ve held out for as long as I can for news from Ovo but my lease runs out soonish so I need to form a plan :thinking:

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Gotcha. I’ll definitely ask Tim to double check for sure, but I can definitely confirm that the charger should continue to function as a standard CHAdeMO EV Charger without any doubt, should you choose to keep it after the trial.

What I can’t confirm just yet is whether the charger will retain the Smart or V2G functionality after the trial period ends. In an ideal world, I’d love to say that it would, but I don’t have those details handy.

Would you be OK to hang in there for a day or two? I’ll keep an eye on this thread and aim to get some kind of update by this Friday.

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Everybody is wondering that. I would love to keep the real time tariff optimisation, but I would also like to see V2H. I guess that part depends mostly on how Kaluza decides. They are the technology leader in this space, so I would be surprised if they gave up on the opportunity to gain more experience. 

But I would not make my choice of car depend on this. There is only one car with Chademo (and at a good price), surrounded by lots of competition with CCS. 

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I too am very interested to hear what the capabilities of the V2G charger will be post trial. Any information would be appreciated.

Userlevel 7

Great question this, @wwfc_dave, and clearly lots of interest from other trialists. 

 

3 members asking the same question here usually means 30 questions being asked in the V2G Facebook group! 

 

I’ve asked our OVO Smart Home team what the latest is, and I’ve been shared a draft of the latest communication that will be sent to all trialists. This is still being finalized, so I won’t mention any specifics yet, but once this is finished, I’ll be posted it on this forum and linking to it on this topic. 

 

Thanks for bearing with us in the meantime. 

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Hello fellow V2Gers or followers 

 

The question is …… whats happening at the end of V2G ?

 

A lot of users are coming to a end of the 2 year contract this year some as early as March. 

Yet we still don't have any news or support from OVO on this leaving many owners looking at moving on and other technical solutions such as power walls. 

Other energy suppliers are all ready teasing us to join them offering dual tariffs along with export rates making them a real prospect at the end of our contracts since we will own the equipment for just £1 at the end of the trial 

 

SO with all that I am asking OVO direct, whats happening ? the rumour has it thats that its finished no further action or prospect of developing the whole house solution, and thats a real shame so much invested and all dumped like some Soviet project?

I think its about time OVO put the cards out on the table and gave all its V2G members an insight to the future to allow them to move forward. 

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@Transparent @Ash_OVO just off the top of my head !! its all gone quiet on this front if its the end let us now reach out and tell the community so we can move on!

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Unlike the Dimplex Quantum radiator with Flex control, I can’t foresee the V2G network being disbanded. After all, it’s only just been launched in Australia.

V2G with CCS connection is being explored by Indra using a £350k grant from OLEV, but the CCS Consortium is still slating grid-transfer as another 3-years hence.

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Great question this, @wwfc_dave, and clearly lots of interest from other trialists. 

 

3 members asking the same question here usually means 30 questions being asked in the V2G Facebook group! 

 

I’ve asked our OVO Smart Home team what the latest is, and I’ve been shared a draft of the latest communication that will be sent to all trialists. This is still being finalized, so I won’t mention any specifics yet, but once this is finished, I’ll be posted it on this forum and linking to it on this topic. 

 

Thanks for bearing with us in the meantime. 

hahah your right there Tim !!!  

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Indications are that V2G does have a useful role to play in a future smart grid.

It would be great to see the current Indra V2G charger reach its full potential post trial.

It does seem that the technology has been limited to allow consistency within the trial but far more flexibility is available depending on individual customers needs and domestic setup. 
 

Hopefully the current chargers and trial members can be part of the development and the project is not left dead after the trial period and funding ends.

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I think it’s also worth noting that while trials like these are essentially Beta Testing, they can potentially graduate into live products and services. As such, I would not be surprised at all if the V2G Trial gets transitioned from Beta to Production under a name like OVO CarCharge or similar (probably with a much better name than that!).

In other cases, a trial might be converted to an extended trial that goes on for longer than originally planned. Either way, you do get the world's cheapest EV Charger out of it! No doubt that 1p for a super fancy CHAdeMO EV Charger is an extremely good deal and an absolute bargain.

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I think it’s also worth noting that while trials like these are essentially Beta Testing, they can potentially graduate into live products and services. As such, I would not be surprised at all if the V2G Trial gets transitioned from Beta to Production under a name like OVO CarCharge or similar (probably with a much better name than that!).

In other cases, a trial might be converted to an extended trial that goes on for longer than originally planned. Either way, you do get the world's cheapest EV Charger out of it! No doubt that 1p for a super fancy CHAdeMO EV Charger is an extremely good deal and an absolute bargain.

I totally agree £1 is a bargain but it does depend a lot on the functionality of that charger post trial. We do not currently know  how we can control the charger other than the buttons on the unit will still function.

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I think it’s also worth noting that while trials like these are essentially Beta Testing, they can potentially graduate into live products and services. As such, I would not be surprised at all if the V2G Trial gets transitioned from Beta to Production under a name like OVO CarCharge or similar (probably with a much better name than that!).

In other cases, a trial might be converted to an extended trial that goes on for longer than originally planned. Either way, you do get the world's cheapest EV Charger out of it! No doubt that 1p for a super fancy CHAdeMO EV Charger is an extremely good deal and an absolute bargain.

I like the enthusiasm, however I think it will be put to bed, OVO has delivered the project and it’s allowed the development of Kaluza to manage them, but that’s now been enrolled to manage the smart + charger that has more features that the V2G unit despite being the same manufacture and a very capable bit of kit as this makes money for OVO. 
There’s no denying V2G is a very good product and is the way forward but the figures just done add up at the moment and I suspect that’s why it’s probably going to be ended 
Prove me wrong OVO but I think the party is over 

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If it was about to put to bed, then why the Australian launch?

There’s a massively important part of the overall strategy which remains completely untested… what happens if the Leaf owner uses a Time Of Use tariff?!

I do think you ought to read the (ridiculously short) White Paper from Cenex/Kaluza which firstly evaluates the present outcome of the Trial

 

 

and then goes on to consider the future

 

Do you really think that Kaluza and its partners/investors would abandon the installed base of 350+ Trial sites without taking this logical next step?

From where would they then raise another £3m to install a second group of V2G chargers in order to develop the algorithms required to operate them under a Time Of Use import tariff and a variable export-rate?

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If it was about to put to bed, then why the Australian launch?

There’s a massively important part of the overall strategy which remains completely untested… what happens if the Leaf owner uses a Time Of Use tariff?!

I do think you ought to read the (ridiculously short) White Paper from Cenex/Kaluza which firstly evaluates the present outcome of the Trial

 

 

and then goes on to consider the future

 

Do you really think that Kaluza and its partners/investors would abandon the installed base of 350+ Trial sites without taking this logical next step?

From where would they then raise another £3m to install a second group of V2G chargers in order to develop the algorithms required to operate them under a Time Of Use import tariff and a variable export-rate?

In short yes I think they will drop it, why ? 
 

because they have developed what they need from the trail as far as software from the Kaluza platform possibly why it was separated from OVO as it’s worth X , as much as I think it’s morally right the sums don’t add up, but time will tell I hope I am wrong and eating my hat !! 

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Dynamic tariff pricing as mentioned a company ( a under sea creature ) is offering  to onboard with them on paying variable tariffs but they are low and the company in question beats OVO hands down on tariffs so I am not hold out much hope for it being financially viable from OVO. 
don’t forget it’s our car battery we are sacrificing here ! It’s all to easy to go an a EV overnight charging tariff and in many cases be very much the same financially. 

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@D10hulwrote:

[Kaluza] possibly why it was separated from OVO as it’s worth X 

Technically not so.

Although we are often told that Kaluza is an operating division of OVO Energy (06890795), it was initially bought by OVO Group (08862063) as a company called Vcharge (SC490706). That gave the OVO Group the rights to algorithms for handling distributed mass-storage.

Vcharge was dissolved in Dec 2019

Kaluza Ltd was registered as a company (12218271) by the directors of OVO Group, but it never actually traded and was dissolved in Oct’20.

Orion Energy Technology ( 12218299) was registered in Sept’19, and was renamed Kaluza on 12th Oct’20.

The trading title “Kaluza” has been used by other companies within the OVO Group during the past 3 years.

These changes of persona are mainly due to incoming investment of partners such as Mitsubishi.

 

they have developed what they need from the trial

Not yet they haven’t. They’ve barely started.

There are two glaring omissions in the required suite of algorithms:

  • customers with Time Of Use tariffs
  • regionally based energy-mix

At the moment the import/export calculations are based only on National Grid data. This treats the entire country as a homogenous zone. The location of the stored electricity is ignored.

 

It’s all to easy to go an a EV overnight charging tariff and in many cases be very much the same financially.

But it is technically impossible for GB to permit the growing number of EVs to charge overnight. However strong is the financial argument, it cannot continue to be implemented whilst ignoring the physics!

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@Transparent 

Thanks my argument is mainly I feel OVO either have a trick up there sleeve or they are not to pressed to chase being a equipment provider and more just playing with the energy market wholesale. 

I think they are in a perfect position to offer products as well as tariffs but I also feel OVO are not moving as fast as they could or should if they want to be market leaders. 

Theres no denying this is good plan, and although you won't actually make any money the overall concept is very appealing despite the initial outlay. 

https://octopus.energy/tesla-energy-plan-faq/

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Well that’s a very interesting observation @D10hul 

I sent a document to OVO less than a week ago which expressed similar sentiments. What do you think @Tim_OVO ?

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 What do you think @Tim_OVO ?

 

I was just thinking how nice it is to see members with like minded interests and a common query, sharing and discussing. 

 

I won’t comment any further, my opinions mean nothing in this instance, but I will make sure you all have the latest update from the Smart Home team when this is sent. I’ll also insist you come back to let us know what you think about the proposed next steps. :nerd:

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...

There are two glaring omissions in the required suite of algorithms:

  • customers with Time Of Use tariffs
  • regionally based energy-mix

At the moment the import/export calculations are based only on National Grid data. This treats the entire country as a homogenous zone. The location of the stored electricity is ignored.

 

I think Kaluza has been experimenting with regional or even local data. There is no reason why they would not. 

Time Of Use tariffs is the one big omission. Even our wholesale market is not very well developed, and with Brexit, we seem to have taken a step back rather than forward. The EU has a very sophisticated centralised balancing mechanism, while the US have regional market based balancing mechanisms. The UK really has very little in that respect and even less opportunity for private DSR. 

More work needs to be done, in terms of experimentation, regulation, and market structure. It would be silly to give up on the install base, especially since there are no new vehicles currently available that support V2G.

But we have agency, and OVO would need to come up with a better offer to keep me as a customer. Consider yourself a valuable asset! 

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@MrPuds wrote:

I think Kaluza has been experimenting with regional or even local data.

They had access to data from a substation at Crantock, North Cornwall, in 2019. But the equipment attached to the transformer was only certified for 12months use. All 80 LV-CAP monitors were decommissioned at the end of the Trial.

Regional data isn’t going to be much more useful than the National Grid when it comes to the management of Distributed Mass Storage. There simply aren’t enough sites to evaluate any outcomes.

The best level of detail that’s available would be from the Bulk Supply Points:

BSP’s have energy mix data available in addition to the voltage/current statistics.

The 33kV feeds also have measurable losses from harmonics. So Kaluza could investigate if Flex can in any way assist to diminish that.

 

energy losses due to harmonics on 33kV line

I’ve published an overview of Grid Balancing on the Forum. To have a future as an essential service for UK energy supply, the Flex Platform will need to make a positive contribution to as many of those targets as possible.

I think we’re a long way from that. It’s going to need the combined effort of several external partners to have any meaningful effect on these problems…. and that includes making much better use of the 400-odd customers on the V2G Trial.

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> I think we’re a long way from that. 

Yes, a very long way, and that is really sad. V2G could absolutely absorb harmonics, in fact pretty much any electronic device could. But the grid code makes that very difficult. The same applies to other balancing mechanisms, from phase balancing to regional balancing. And as you said, there is not enough data available. 

It is not enough to install smart meters in every household. In fact, that is a distinctly minor part of the system. We need to make sure that the grid infrastructure becomes smarter, and as you said, at the moment there is a just a big data void at the MV level. 

I have followed the trends in the US, and I appreciate that they have a completely different structure for the electricity industry, but they seem to be much further along. They are also better prepared for mass roll out of electric vehicles. (And they are certainly not investing more in infrastructure.)

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@ArundaleP you may enjoy having a look at this thread ^^^

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